Oxymoron or Morons? Both or Neither? Me?

[keg11]

One thing that drives me bat poo crazy is breeders and there double-speak. On one hand they speak of HIGH quality dogs and too only breed confirmed dogs blah blah blah we've all heard it. Then when inquiring about a pup its about a year wait and sure as hell don't go asking for a specific color/gender etc. THEN go pay a $1000!!!!! :mad:

I first came across this searching for an Aussie and let me tell you they are impossible to find from a "reputable breeder" I searched for 4 months to no avail. However this worked out because now I have my Sheltie Hurley and he is amazing.
In my opinion there should be much easier and affordable ways to get a pup without feeling like your dooming the breed. I know..rescues which God bless rescue orgs and the people who adopt but I also know that to most people color and gender are important.
Its funny because I agree with not "watering down the breed" and not supporting backyard breeders but its totally ridiculous to do what these top notch breeders ask for.
Lets keep it simple. Suppose I was looking for a bi-blue male for companionship not to exceed $500 and willing to wait 3 months. To me it sounds simple. Not so much.
Thanks for the Rant Space!!

[Lahree]

Because we are in the same state, we probably looked at allllll the same breeder sites! I contacted the AKC and they refer you to a website for the local Shetland Sheepdog Club. They in turn have a central contact person for all of North Texas. I contacted her, told her I wanted--a Sable female-- and she sent out a mass email to all her members that forwarded my request. I got a lot of responses back, however, none of them had a female Sable. They all had something really, really cute and tried their darndest to get us interested (and I was interested in ALL of them! Gad! I can't resist any Sheltie), however, I really wanted a sable female and stuck to my guns and kept looking, looking and looking--checking back to sites that said they were about to have a litter and low and behold, I FINALLY found a female Sable Merle that was born during the time frame I was interested in. She is a five hour drive from me, but I did a lot of research on the breeder and am happy with my selection.

"They" always say that price should be one of the last consderations for a puppy--well, maybe for a jillionaire it aint an issue, but I have to be realistic. I am willing to pay a good price for a healthy well-bred companion puppy, but I'm not willing to pay a show-dog price for a non-show dog. I saw some ill-bred representations of Shelties on a pet classified page and they were being sold for $1,300! When I looked at them my first thought was that I hoped the average John Q. Public doesn't think that this is what a Sheltie looks like and I sure hope no one pays that amount of money for a puppy-mill looking puppy! It has the potential to drive the price of a companion pup up outta reach for the average Joe like me.

I got Ellie Mae for what I would consider the "going rate" for what a really nicely bred, reputable breeder sells a pet puppy for these days. The breeder does the dew claws, worming, first series of shots, ear taping, etc. and lots of socializing. All of her animals are raised indoors under foot.

[HopeShelties]

Hey, not all of us are like that! I try to be helpful with my puppy buyers. If I have it available, and as long as I think the pup will fit the families/persons lifestyle, I'm willing to let them pick which one. Since I breed not only for conformation, but things I'd look for in a working dog as well, I do have some puppies which are very high drive, and are best suited to active households/performance homes, and would probably drive a person who just wants a couch potato nuts, I do have to evaluate the situation for each pup.
But yeah, if I have the color/sex a person is looking for and the temperament is a good match for them, they're welcome to pick and choose.... and if I don't have the color/sex they're looking for, I try to refer them to someone who might. My pet pups are also priced more reasonably than $1000 :x Though... they're not $500 either (a bit more), but when you factor in the costs, it's not cheap to get the puppies there if you're doing things right. You have the stud fee, and if you're breeding to a really good one, you're looking at something like $650 for the stud fee, then $200 breeding fee, testing for vwd, mdr1, cerf, hips, thryoid, and brucellosis (probably $500-$600 there), if you're paying that much for the fee you don't want to miss the breeding, so you're paying for progesterone testing several times, then you've got the cost of either an ultrasound or radiographs to tell you if the girl is pregnant and how many to expect, then if the litter had no complications, 3 day health check, dew claw removal, at least 2 sets of shots, worming, and another health check before they leave. This is all figuring the stud is local/easy to get to, but if not, you're paying something around $300 shipping the dog to the stud, or something around $200 for shipping the semen to you. Also, if the whelping did have complications, you can run up a mighty large vet bill for things like a c section. :( By the time testing is done, stud fees are paid, and vet visits are done, you're out about $1500 :eek2:
I do know where you're coming from though. There are definately some breeders out there that are tough to work with, but then there are those of us who really care about our puppy buyers and want to help them as well! :biggrin2:
Curious though, other than selling pets on limited registration, and asking that if the puppy needs to be sold for any reason, they'll buy it back, what problems did you have with what the big breeders were asking?
I *do* see where if you were looking for a bi-blue it could be difficult to find one. That seems to be a fairly hard to find color sometimes.

[BarbV]

The problem is that that quality breeders do invest alot of money in their pups. And not all pups will be show quality, even if bred from champions throughout the pedigree. But the breeder invested the same amount of time and effort and money to produce the companion pet as she did the show dog.

They are not in it for the money, but they do need to cover their expenses somehow. I have no issues with that, and support what they do.

If you do not want to pay $700 to $1,000 for a companion puppy, consider getting a slightly older dog. As everyone wants a cute 8 week old, breeders often have 1 to 5 year olds that they were growing out for show or breeding, then determined would not make it.

I just brought Ginnie, a 3 year old blue merle and paid 1/4 of the normal price. Yes, their are drawbacks....she comes with her own baggage which I need to work on, but she's a sweet girl and I'm optimistic that things will turn out fine.

Good luck!

[keg11]

I really do understand the cost of breeding, its quite high and really price is not the thing that gets under my skin the most. My thing and I will not name the breeders this happened with but it was the level of customer service. No calls back, no email responses things of that sort. To me that makes the puppy mills. Hell, if I a reasonably intelligent, patient person has to fight red tape to the point of throwing my hands in the air then I really pity the person who loves Shelties but isn't ready for the process that is dealing with certain breeders. Like I said the bulk of my searching was done looking for an Aussie. Since this is all Shelties all the time I will leave the Aussie talk at this...Not even one member of the Aussie Club of America had the courtesy to return an email. Now I'm looking for a Sheltie pup for my mother and its starting the same way. That being said I have a long way to go in the search and I'm very hopeful I'll be able to find the right match. One thing is for sure, Sheltie people have been VERY cool and HELPFULL

[BarbV]

I have to admit that I never had this experience.

Both reputable and non-reputable alike were happy to respond to my queries. In fact, the puppy mills, more so.

I always provided my "resume" - yes, just like job-searching - it generally guaranteed me a response from all breeders. Thereputable were more apt to respond if they they had some sense that I was serious in my search and knew specifically what I was looking for. And if they got a sense that I knew what I was doing as well. They all wanted to know about my work-life, my home set-up (fenced yard, country property, etc.) and yes, my personal life - how many kids, married or otherwise. I was always honest and up-front. These people know their dogs and know what works. The last thing I wanted was a pup that would not fit my lifestyle.

I followed up with the breeders that really were interested in my "credentials" and were keen to open their homes for me to visit. If all they wanted to do was sell me a pup, then I was no longer interested.

[Cheje-Lyn]

I'm sorry to hear that you had problems, but you're not alone. I can honestly relate to your frustration. When I first got started, it took me a few years to finally find some super nice breeders that took me seriously and gave me a chance. I contacted some big name breeders. I, too, will not mention names, but I had one to tell me that I HAD to do everything she said or I would ruin a good dog. She talked down to me and treated me as if I'd never owned a dog before. I had another to pass me off to another breeder, not a single word to me even though I had complimented her dogs, and the lady that I got passed off to was just as rude as the first one. Needless to say, I do understand. Just know that there are good ones out there that are willing to talk to you and work with you. :smile2: Not all of us are bad. It may take awhile to find those really nice wonderful ones, but you'll find them, and you'll be glad that you kept going forward. :smile2:

[Chris]

You've all convinced me that my experience was nothing short of miraculous. When I decided to get a Sheltie puppy, I found a breeder list on the internet and started looking for breeders within a three-state radius. When I saw the Norwood website, I was intrigued by its professionalism. Then I noticed that their site said, "Phone calls preferred." So I called -- and Alexandra answered the phone. Like Barb, I presented my credentials and was invited to visit. When I got there, Alexandra placed Layla in my arms and said, "This is the puppy I've selected for you."

Yes, I know many folks like to pick. But I figured Alexandra knew a whole lot more about Sheltie matchmaking than I did. I took one look and fell in love. Six weeks later, we picked up Bits -- we'd decided on another puppy from an upcoming litter, but a false pregnancy foiled us. Alexandra called and said, "I have a puppy we haven't placed from Reign's litter that you saw when you were here. She's the 'runt' of the litter and we don't think she'll be big enough to show. But she's such a sweetie, and we've all fallen in love with her -- we were trying to find the right home for her. When this happened, we all thought 'What about Chris?"

Now folks, that's a pro. And at that time, she was 19 years old. We correspond, she's always ready to give advice if I need it, and when I'm ready for another Sheltie, I sure know where I'm going! :yes:

[Lahree]

When I wrote to the contact information lady at the local Shetland Sheepdog club, I, too, presented my credentials. It let everyone know in the mass email that I had a large fenced yard, 28 years experience with Shelties, that someone would be home with the dog almost all the time, and that we had no kids. One strong point we made in our email was the fact that we had a cat. We love our cat to pieces and she LOVED our last Sheltie. They played allllll the time. I said in the email that it was imperitive that any Sheltie we got would have to be either a puppy (it's easy introducing a puppy to a cat) or, if we adopted an older dog, the dog MUST have been around cats and be gentle with them. Our cat is quite shy and we didn't want it to be traumatic for her to bring a older dog home that might chase her.

I think laying out your "resume" really helps the breeders know what your background and experience is with the breed and that their baby would be going to a good home. I got lots of responses that way.

I'd be happy to give you the email address of the Sheltie contact person in North Texas if you want me to, Keg. I "met" a lot of nice people!

[keg11]

Yes that would be great to have that email. Thanks!!!

[Lahree]

Yes that would be great to have that email. Thanks!!!

nkgreer@usa.net

Her name is Nancy Greer and she is the referral source for North Texas. Good luck!

[Silaria]

(Oops.. this turned out a bit longer than I intended.)

Wow! I got very lucky when dealing with my local Sheltie club and my breeder. I didn't have any issues at all with either; if anything I gave them more problems because I was looking for a 1 - 2 year old and not a puppy. (I ended up with a 7 month old who was already crate trained.)

Before contacting ANYONE I spent months on line researching the the various breeds I had shortlisted for my new dog. I knew I wanted to do agility and I didn't want a large breed dog; 40 lbs was my limit. Whatever breed I selected had to be fairly easygoing because we had a 15 year old Finish Spitz (who is now 17) also. Research into temperments quickly narrowed my list down to 2 - the Eskie and Sheltie.

As my luck would have it, our local dog show occurred in the middle of my search so it was a great opportunity go to and talk to breeders and agility handlers to help narrow my search. (Turns out most of my talking was with the agility handlers.) By the end of the day, I knew I wanted a Sheltie and was fortunate enough to have one of the local breeders at the show introduce me to the person responsible for putting people in touch with breeders with dogs for sale.

When I spoke with her, I explained that I preferred a male dog with sable coloring but was more interested in the temperament of the animal than the color. I was also upfront that I don't have a fenced in yard but the dogs are never outside unsupervised and we lived at the very end of a dead end street with minimal traffic. I also made it known I was interested in performing with the dog in agility. Finally, I made it know had experience with intelligent dogs having already owned a Malamute and currently had a 15 year old Finish Spitz.

About 2 weeks after the show, I was told about a then 6 month old male mahogany sable. As I mentioned above, it took some convincing to look at the puppy because we really wanted an older dog. When asked why I was honest - we didn't have time to stay home and house break a puppy. This is when we learned the pup was already crate trained and had not had accidents in the crate in a few months. The crate training is what made us look and I'm SOOO glad we did because I'd have missed out on my dear little boy.

Anyway, I was put in touch with my breeder and talked to her a few times on the phone in great detail before making arrangements to visit and see the pup. The fact that she allowed us to bring our Finish Spitz with us to see how they'd get along was a feather in her cap.

I still correspond with my breeder; in fact I just saw her and her pups the other day. (My husband fell in love with Edan's sister, CJ.) Her dogs not just show dogs, they are her pets first and she always has their well being in mind.