Brit v. US type Shelties

[Phebe*DD]

I've been reading everything I can find online about the development of Shelties as a breed. (I may have to actually buy a book soon!) I've come across some references to differences that developed as importing of Shelties to the US decreased following WWII, and am curious what those differences are and if it's possible for an experienced Sheltie person to identify a dog as being either Brit or US.

[labgirl]

That sounds interesting, I have a feeling some of the colours recognised in the US are not recognised here in the UK, or am I wrong?

[clancyh8sabby]

I'm no expert by any means!! but I've noticed that the UK are lighter color (speaking of the sables) and boned..and seems to have finer features in the face..I've heard the term "alot of bone" when referring to the U.S. ones...

woofs

Julie
Clancy & Abby

[Ania]

I've heard that about the Brit structure too, that they are more 'lighter' and finer, more fox like, vs the US ones, which are more broad and 'heavier'.

[GeeRome]

I find it quite easy to distinguish a Brit vs North American Sheltie. The British type are much finer, the head shape is generally different with a more pronounced stop and a sharper muzzle (often called "snipey"). Ear set is slightly different, coat is less exaggerated in the British type. Bone is definitely a big factor, the North American type are much heavier bone, tend to be longer in the back.

[HopeShelties]

I can easily tell the difference between the british and US types. If given pictures to identify, I can point out which is which for various reasons.

[BarbV]

I can easily tell the difference between the british and US types. If given pictures to identify, I can point out which is which for various reasons.

Me too!

Bacca is definitely North American! Long in body, heavier boned, longer neck, longer legs. Indy has definitely more stop in his head and just more compact all around.

He does not weigh alot more than Indy and their heights at whithers are not alot different, but when I pick them up, I sure notice the difference. Bacca is an armful! More of everything.

[*Caro]

If you want to see the difference between English and American lines, have a look at my two. Tully is 'petite' build, with finer bones, shorter body, less coat. Deska has the longer body, heavy bone, heavy coat (they look more rough collie to me). American are also more likely to be taller because of the 1" difference in height allowed between the two Kennel Clubs.

We have a mix of both lines here so for many shelties its hard to differentiate. I think in Aust we also set our ears differently (to America) so the difference in ears is not noticeable unless they are direct imports and had their ears set already.

[BarbV]

If you want to see the difference between English and American lines, have a look at my two. Tully is 'petite' build, with finer bones, shorter body, less coat. Deska has the longer body, heavy bone, heavy coat (they look more rough collie to me). American are also more likely to be taller because of the 1" difference in height allowed between the two Kennel Clubs.

We have a mix of both lines here so for many shelties its hard to differentiate. I think in Aust we also set our ears differently (to America) so the difference in ears is not noticeable unless they are direct imports and had their ears set already.

I think this picture of Bacca and Indy also shows the differences. Compare the length of Bacca to Indy. The body build is totally different.

And their snouts are different too! Like you said, Bacca has a rough collie look to him. Indy is just finer all around. Even though they are just a few pounds different in weight and maybe less than 1" in height.

[romeosangiovese]

I always describe US shelties are "macho looking", coz that's what they always strike me as looking!

[Phebe*DD]

Thanks! I knew my forum friends would have the answers. :yes:

[Narmowen]

I can also tell the difference, rather easily.

Molly is a heavier, US type Sheltie (so is Luke), with more coat, and heavier bone.

Sally is a Brit-type Sheltie. She's smaller, finer boned, with a sharper, more distinct looking head. Really light coat, too. Generally, a US sheltie won't do very well when shown in with the Brit shelties (over there, I mean), because our Shelties are bred to be TOO heavy.

They just can't work as efficiently as the Brit shelties, because we've OVERbred them for the bone (as in too much bone) and hair. We americans do like to overexagerate out dogs (and horses.)

[labgirl]

I don't know if this helps, but from my limited knowledge of the dog showing world these seem to be two quite top British breeders (I base this on their Kennel names appearing often in show results and also in a lot of pedigrees). I rather like their dogs.

Neraklee Shelties
http://www.eywp.com/nerakleesheltie/pictures.asp

Shelridge Shetland Sheepdog (states on their site they breed Shelties of true British type).
http://www.shelridge.org/

And this is the English Shetland Sheepdog Club - East Anglian Branch (my region) Click on gallery to see group photos of many shelties including one really BIG boy:wink2:
http://www.eassc.org.uk/

[Vienna]

I think the most funny way to describe the difference between a US type and the UK type is to say the US type dog looks like a cowboy and the UK type dog looks like a british gentleman :wink2:

Here is the pictures of a US dog best of breed us type

http://i81.servimg.com/u/f81/11/81/71/33/peterp10.jpg


And here is the picture of a UK dog best of breed UK type

http://i81.servimg.com/u/f81/11/81/71/33/robin_10.jpg

[Vienna]

Shelridge is one of the best kennel in Europe :wink2:

[BarbV]

[QUOTE=Vienna;31053]I think the most funny way to describe the difference between a US type and the UK type is to say the US type dog looks like a cowboy and the UK type dog looks like a british gentleman :wink2:

QUOTE]

What a great way to describe the differences! :smile2:

[labgirl]

Shelridge is one of the best kennel in Europe
Is it? I figured they must be pretty good as the name appeared in so many good dog's pedigrees.

I'd love a shelridge pup.:smile2:

[Ariel]

I actually prefer the look of the British Shelties delicacy.

Many of the US Champions are just too much dog. Like most things American, we tend to overdo everything to the extreme.

I know it's highly desired, but I particularly don't care for many of the really full under jaws. In my opinion, those muzzles lose the sweet Sheltie look.

[Vienna]

I do love to have a shelridge puppy too but only few lucky persons can buy one... One day, I will succeed perhaps :rolleyes2:

Ariel, I'm pretty agree with you. The problem is that today, there are so many differences between the 2 types that they could be 2 different breeds. And that's why a lot of breeders ask for 2 different stud books.

And differences is not only physical. I owned some US type dogs and some uk's ones too and to my opinion, temper is also much different.

And I do prefer the english type for the same reasons as Ariel and that's why I breed english type :wink2:

[Anna]

I think that beautiful, sweet head like British type is my desire but bones must be strong (not too heavy); temperament must be (for me of course) really strong and vital :yes:
I think that the US bloodlines mixed whit British bloodlines in good proportion is quite good solution for me or other breeders who like both types :wink2:

I think the most funny way to describe the difference between a US type and the UK type is to say the US type dog looks like a cowboy and the UK type dog looks like a british gentleman
It's really good, hahahahah :lol:

[Chris]

I never knew about the difference -- how fascinating!! Layla is a bit Brit-looking, then. And here all along I thought it was because she was part Japanese! :lol:

[BarbV]

I too, tend to prefer the British standard....so much more delicate and refined!

I love my big-boned Bacca - definitely US standard - but truly, if I had wanted a bigger dog, I would have gotten a collie! (Ooops! I think that was my inside voice speaking! :razz:)

[*Caro]

I agree the British lines are very beautiful (prob more beautiful) but they do seem more likely to be timid. I guess its the same 'British reserve" vs 'American openess'. The American lines do have great coats though and I must say I find the British lines a little too dainty for a sheepdog. (mind you Tully has no problem herding 6ft kangaroos so perhaps the look can be deceiving)

[Leslie]

I dont know why you say that the british lines could be more timid. I have never found that to be.
My english imported shelties and all the stock down from them have been outgoing and friendly.:winkgrin:

[Vienna]

In France US type tends to be more ... arf ... I don't have the exact english words... They are more frightened by everything and tend to be a bit like terrier temper. English are much more sweeter and happy to see people. That's why I stoped with US type for UK type.

Plus about bones, shelties and border collies were never so strong bones dogs (as seen in US) before having a feet in USA :winkgrin:.
And I saw american little thing with just no bones and english dog with much enough for 2. So I don't think it's just a story of bones. You just have to look at the heads. For me it's the true difference between english and american types. When you look at the head, it really looks like 2 different breeds.

I think my breeder's job is to preserve the original breed, not to change it as I think it should be but it's also like this that new breeds are coming. Just in France it's a big problem because english and american types are so melting that it's never more uk type or us type... So a third breed ??? Just crazy...

[Leslie]

Hi Vienna, you have hit the nail right on the head, so to speak, the major difference is in the head.
The head is very strong and coarse with a very heavy underjaw.
There are only minor differences between the two standards, size being one of them, but the american people have bred the sheltie type that they want.
We have quite a few american/english crosses here and they dont fit either american or english, they are quite unusual really, there is no box that I can put them in.

[jazzyfizzle]

Sort of on the same topic here... I have always wondered if the UK shelties retain more of the original working dog attributes- herding instinct, biddability, strong work ethic, nerves of steel.. ect.
I would love to hear from the import owners and folks across the pond, if they feel this is the case, or if it is sort of like searching for a needle in a haystack like here (to find all those qualities in one dog- and of course a nicely structured dog to boot).
All along my DH has said I should import something to get what I want :razz:

[Ariel]

My first Sheltie had the face and head of the British Shelties. She was tiny.
Her herding instinct at 8 wks old was very strong, and the itsy bitsy thing only weighed 2 1/2#. She would only walk behind us, swinging from side to side to keep us in line.

Ariel has none of this instinct I can see. When playing with her she frequently nips, but I don't know if that's to keep me in line or just being a punk. Compared to Tink there is no herding instinct. As far back as I know her pedigree, there is no British influence.

[BarbV]

Sort of on the same topic here... I have always wondered if the UK shelties retain more of the original working dog attributes- herding instinct, biddability, strong work ethic, nerves of steel.. ect.
:

I'm not sure I would make that generalization. Bacca (my NA type - has alot of features like a rough collie sometimes) is the herder in the family. He's also more solid in temperment and works harder. Indy is just a big flirt, and he is more UK type, I think - both in bones and head structure.

I expect that we will see more and more mixing of the types as our big world gets smaller, and we'll see more introducing of lines between the big pond. I expect that this cross-pollination can only improve the breed if done properly.

[*Caro]

My American (Deska) has the strongest herding instinct I have had in a dog. He will herd things that move away from him, round on animals and try to bring them in. Tully (English) on the other hand prefers to chase and will bark at stationary things to make them move away (lol).

There is definately more mixing of the lines going on here and it is a good idea, esp after the criticism last year about breeding practice in the UK with a small breeding stock for some breeds (like rough collies). Shelties were bitsa dogs in the first place anyway.

[Baileysmom]

Well then my guy is defnitely a Brit type, he's extremely refined and has a long skinny head and snout. Looks like a collie in miniature for sure!

Here he is at 7 months old:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_5Owdr29Nvnw/SoFNXRnylhI/AAAAAAAABK0/Ww__l6D21Gg/s640/DSCF0480.JPG

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_5Owdr29Nvnw/SoFM1dw1F3I/AAAAAAAABKk/eOWe6S7dGFQ/s640/DSCF0540.JPG

[Lightplum]

Well then my guy is defnitely a Brit type, he's extremely refined and has a long skinny head and snout. Looks like a collie in miniature for sure!

Here he is at 7 months old:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_5Owdr29Nvnw/SoFNXRnylhI/AAAAAAAABK0/Ww__l6D21Gg/s640/DSCF0480.JPG

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_5Owdr29Nvnw/SoFM1dw1F3I/AAAAAAAABKk/eOWe6S7dGFQ/s640/DSCF0540.JPG

doesnt really strike me as a british line..just looks like he needs to fill out and mature more...very common in some lines of shelties here that their bone and structure does not fill out completely until around 2...I have one that is almost 5 that is just starting to look nice...

Ps he is very cute too :)

[BarbV]

doesnt really strike me as a british line..just looks like he needs to fill out and mature more...very common in some lines of shelties here that their bone and structure does not fill out completely until around 2...I have one that is almost 5 that is just starting to look nice...

Ps he is very cute too :)

Yes, he is adorable! And I agree that I'm not sure he is brit line. I'm seeing more American. Long legs, long snout (the brits tend to be a little more dish-faced, in my opinion).

I'm still waiting for Bacca to grow into himself. At 16 months, he still looks like a gangly teenager! Will that coat EVER come in!?

[Baileysmom]

Well, I was temped to pay the extra $$ and get the full pedigree from the AKC when I sent in his papers, but he's just a pet so I didn't. All I know are the sire and dam's names on him, so I have no idea what's in there! I got him from a small "backyard" breeder who just had (2) bitches, but she kept her dogs inside in very clean, neat conditions, and I met his mother who was an absolute sweetheart, very calm, outgoing, yet polite. And she showed me a picture of his sire who was a very nice looking boy and both his dam and sire looked like they were bred with proper Sheltie qualities & standards, so I bought him!

He looks very different even now from these pictures that were taken 2 months ago, still pretty refined, tiny feet, and small, skinny head and snout. But he's only 9 months old and has lots of growing to do. I'll have to post more updated pictures and keep them up as he grows.

BarbV, I know what you mean about that coat! Mine is just now starting to get some "bloomers" and a full thick tail, but his ruff is still pretty short. I keep hoping the fur-fairies will come along and give him his coat!

[BarbV]

BarbV, I know what you mean about that coat! Mine is just now starting to get some "bloomers" and a full thick tail, but his ruff is still pretty short. I keep hoping the fur-fairies will come along and give him his coat!

I noticed this week that Bacca is finally growing feathers on his legs! Which of course just makes him look silly and out of proportion! His ruff is slowly coming in, but the hair on his back, belly and butt is short, short, short! You'd think he was growing out a lion's cut!!!!:sadsmile:

[*Caro]

We had one warm weekend and Deska decided to do some shedding of his huge coat and those darn bloomers - now I have fur everywhere and Tully comes away with mouthfuls when she chases him. Those big coats look nice but aahhhhh shedding!