Sheltie History question

[Jess041]

So another thread got me thinking about the original shelties and what they looked like. When I go back and look at pictures of shelties from the 1920's, such as pretty much any dog starting with "Chestnut", in my opinion they only slightly resemble today's show quality sheltie. Even just looking at the silhouette, it's just not quite the same.

At what point did the breed "evolve" to look like our modern sheltie? Or, who do you think is the earliest sheltie that would meet our current breed standard? I haven't done my research, but I'm guessing the breed standard has changed over time? Just curious what your thoughts are (especially breeders).

[tofu pup]

I think the game really started to change in the 60's. There was Peter, who was a good dog who had the ability to produce more of himself when bred to a variety of bitches. He was a "modern" dog, presented in a "modern" way (trimming, grooming, etc. more like what we see today). There was a whole cohort of young breeders and handlers who were revolutionizing the way the breed was presented and the way the breed was perceived.

That said, I think that if you line up, say the BOB winners from every national from the 30s to today, you would see a natural and even progression. (Indeed, there was a fabulous slideshow created for the 2011 National that did just that - and each dog in the progression did "fit" within the context of the one before and the one after.)

See, it's so difficult to take the really good dogs from the 30's and compare them to the really good dogs from today, because there has been almost a century of selective breeding happening. Show breeders don't just put one dog with another and make more dogs, they make very deliberate choices about which dogs are bred from and which aren't. So a great deal of change can occur in a relatively-short period of time.

Here's what it boils down to: our Standard has not changed since 1959, but our standards have - do you see what I mean? The very best dogs of the 30's would still probably look decent next to the very best dogs from the 40's, but even the very best from the 30's would all be neutered and sold as pets today - they would just not be competitive against today's dogs.

As an aside, before we get too nostalgic for the "antique" Shelties, it is my understanding that they tended to have horrific temperaments, and were widely seen as yappy, skittish little things that didn't really belong in the Working group (or in public, for that matter, depending on who you asked). So, even if you prefer the look of the ancient animal, it ought to be said that our forebearers made good choices on personality!

[seashel]

Take a look at this website:
http://www.pedigreelines.com/

click on any of the dogs advertised or even put in your own dog's name or those of the parents, G.Parents etc, then go to the 'Pedigree' section on the right and keep clicking on the dogs at the 'back'of the pedigee. Most have photographs and it is fascinating to 'see' the evolution of the breed over the years.

Although I'm in the UK where the breed type is a bit different, I think for both the North American and European type there was not really any sudden dramatic change but a gradual process. Possibly since the 1950s the changes have been more pronounced. However it is worth bearing in mind that shelties are a 'created' breed, as opposed to some breeds that have existed in a very distinct form for hundreds of years. Those early 'shelties' on Shetland were simply smallish dogs of vaguely collie type (some not even vaguely!) and it wasn't until breeders who wanted to make a mark in the show ring with minature collies decided to take them on that any effort was made to conciously develop a breed type. This was done through quite intensive inbreeding initially and a fair few crosses with small rough collies to 'fix' the type.

IMHO there has never been an original type of sheltie as pretty much since the breed has been in existance (as a distinct breed) it has been evolving. I can't say who would fit the North American Standard but I always think a dog called Ch Uam Var of Houghton Hill who was bred in the 1920s could stand in the show ring today and not be disgraced:
http://www.pedigreelines.com/dog/sho...-houghton-hill
He probably wouldn't be a Ch but I don't think he would be laughed out of the ring.

Of my dogs, the two older ones are quite modern, especially Yogi but Epic is my retro sheltie as he is an old fashioned type that was prevelant in the 60s 70's
http://introducingmyshelties.shutter...ctures/517#515

You might find this an interesting read:
http://www.sheltiesofuktype.org/breed%20history.htm

It is obviously centred on the sheltie in Britain but gives some interesting sheltie history.

[seashel]

Originally Posted by tofu pup

I think the game really started to change in the 60's. There was Peter, who was a good dog who had the ability to produce more of himself when bred to a variety of bitches. He was a "modern" dog, presented in a "modern" way (trimming, grooming, etc. more like what we see today). There was a whole cohort of young breeders and handlers who were revolutionizing the way the breed was presented and the way the breed was perceived.

That said, I think that if you line up, say the BOB winners from every national from the 30s to today, you would see a natural and even progression. (Indeed, there was a fabulous slideshow created for the 2011 National that did just that - and each dog in the progression did "fit" within the context of the one before and the one after.)

See, it's so difficult to take the really good dogs from the 30's and compare them to the really good dogs from today, because there has been almost a century of selective breeding happening. Show breeders don't just put one dog with another and make more dogs, they make very deliberate choices about which dogs are bred from and which aren't. So a great deal of change can occur in a relatively-short period of time.

Here's what it boils down to: our Standard has not changed since 1959, but our standards have - do you see what I mean? The very best dogs of the 30's would still probably look decent next to the very best dogs from the 40's, but even the very best from the 30's would all be neutered and sold as pets today - they would just not be competitive against today's dogs.

As an aside, before we get too nostalgic for the "antique" Shelties, it is my understanding that they tended to have horrific temperaments, and were widely seen as yappy, skittish little things that didn't really belong in the Working group (or in public, for that matter, depending on who you asked). So, even if you prefer the look of the ancient animal, it ought to be said that our forebearers made good choices on personality!

That's really interesting, thank you. The last part in bold made me as it does describe my 'retro' sheltie rather too well!!

[tofu pup]

Originally Posted by seashel

The last part in bold made me as it does describe my 'retro' sheltie rather too well!!

Oh, that made me laugh! Retro is very "in" right now, you know - he must be ahead of the curve!

[Jess041]

Before I posted this I was browsing through Pedigreelines.com. I've probably spent too much time on that website over the past year.. lol.

[seashel]

Originally Posted by tofu pup

Oh, that made me laugh! Retro is very "in" right now, you know - he must be ahead of the curve!

He thinks he is!

Jess041- you sound just like me!! I pop on to have a quick look at something and three hours later in the 'wee small hours'...I'm still looking! I just love pedigrees