Go Back   Sheltie Forums > Performance Sports > Agility
Become a Premium Member Rules Support Sheltie Nation Member Map

Notices

Reply
View First Unread View First Unread  
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old Apr 10, 2014, 02:02 PM
ClantyreSheltie ClantyreSheltie is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 2,683
Default

Border Collies have been interesting for me to watch. I come from a more "working" Border Collie mentality, just because that's what I have more exposure to. Those dogs work all day, then lay down by your feet when it's time to not work. They aren't frantic, they don't spin, whine, or any other frantic like behavior.

I see so many that are just so over the top and the handlers just write off the bad behavior, but that's not what a Border Collie should be. My mother has a young border collie, a mix of barbie collie and ISDS import (Wales). She's great on sheep, if a bit sticky, and loves agility, but then will wrap herself around a chair and sleep on your feet all day. Even people that don't like BC's would have this dog in a hot minute. Would I touch one bred simply for agility? NO.
__________________
Rachael
Marque CD BN RE OA OAJ OAP OJP, CH Katie RN HCT, U-GRCH River AX MXJ OF, U-CH Evie BN RN OAJ, Baby Jase PT
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #12  
Old Apr 10, 2014, 02:17 PM
helps helps is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: CR, Europe
Posts: 283
Default

I believe you. That makes total sense. Plus my friend's dog isn't ISDS/working line at all. She got her actually from breeder who breeds mainly for shows. But whole litter is strange. I've seen brother of her bitch and he's pleasant dog, seems like good dog for life, but he's total opposite of that bitch - he's timid with very low drive. I wouldn't believe they're from the same litter if they didn't tell us. So yea, I think owner might be partly blamed for her dog's frantic behavior (owner is very ambitious) and then as I said whole litter was probably messed up. Anyway, I definitely believe there are good working border collies out there that know when to lay down and rest.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Apr 10, 2014, 04:41 PM
labgirl labgirl is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Suffolk, UK
Posts: 2,129
Default

I have seen some seriously iffy show bred border collies, often bred for colour over temperament. I would go working lines always. Also show lines here are a lot stockier than the working lines. Brother may have a working collie next year which I will puppy sit and probably steal for agility, so I will let you know how we get on! (He is getting it to work his sheep).
__________________
Sophie, owned by
Merlin (Blue Merle) 17/12/2010 [Shelridge The Magician]
Cadbury (Chocolate Labrador) 3/02/2008 [Poolehall Cadbury Choc]
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Apr 10, 2014, 06:43 PM
HopeShelties HopeShelties is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,932
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SheltieChe View Post
However there is no going around that it takes more work for smaller frame dog to run as fast as bigger BC. When I look at Leo stride, it takes 3 of his to come up to one of Che´s, who is ratehr BC size
Also the problem seen by Chiro/ PT people is a widespread one, not localized to specific area, I am hearing it from many people.
And now on the agility playground coming all those border staffies and border jacks...
On your first point, I have never heard that simply running fast causes dogs to break down faster. If the dog is structurally sound, and well conditioned, it shouldn't have much trouble regardless of the speed it runs.

Second, yes, it is widespread. That is because over every area you are going to find dogs with physical issues that are causing them to break down faster.

On the last one, I don't think you want to get me started on the breeding of border staffies, border jacks, border whippets.... etc etc. I am not a fan of creating mixed breeds to produce agility dogs. My biggest problems with it are these:
That there is no consistency. It can be hard enough to predict what you get when breeding purebreds. When you take two dogs of two completely different breeds, you are taking an even bigger chance with what you will get. There is nothing predictable about doing it.
Then there is the marketing of it. They want to claim that by breeding X to Y, they are getting the best of both worlds. Sure, you can get that, but you will just as often get the WORST of both, or somewhere in the middle.
Lastly, from what I am seeing at least, these often seem to be the most extreme breedings. They are it seems taking the wackiest over the top dogs of each breed and breeding them together. There from what I have seen is a lot of ignoring everything else in favor of as much drive as they can get. I have no problem with breeding for drive, but I do have a problem with breeding for it to the exclusion of all else. I am really curious how some of these crosses are to live with. Taking the most over the top Border Collie and breeding it to the most over the top Jack Russell and getting wacky over the top puppies with traits from both of the breeds isn't something I would want to live with.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old Apr 11, 2014, 05:25 AM
helps helps is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: CR, Europe
Posts: 283
Default

I totally agree. I'm against creating mixed breeds, too. There are so many breeds u can use for sports, I don't see the point of taking risks and mixing other breeds.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old Apr 11, 2014, 06:20 AM
Caro's Avatar
Caro Caro is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Canberra, Australia
Posts: 4,562
Default

This is something I have personal experience with - having 2 dogs that developed arthritis before the age of 6. And Tully, a small, extremely high drive dog, who was injured in agility. I've had a lot of discussions with numerous specialists, physio, rehab, breeders etc about selecting dogs for sports. From all this I've found there are 2 main reasons why dogs are showing up with arthritis when they are young.

1 - dysplasia. It's all very well to go for working lines of BCs (and here Kelpies) for agility, but there is no requirement for working lines to be tested for dysplasia. Tully's surgeon said he has a lot of working sheepdogs dogs getting hip replacements due to dysplasia. Dysplasia generally is on the increase and yes agility can trigger arthritis in a dysplastic dog. Wonder how many of the top agility competitors know the PennHip score on their dogs.

2 - Intensive exercise. Primarily fetch. Without a doubt every specialist has said they wish they could ban fetch. It puts so much strain on a dog's body and people will throw the ball with abandon thinking it is great to wear the dog out. Problem is a high drive dog does not know when to stop so they go far beyond what a dog's body can take. Tully was like this. Sheepdogs were not designed to go on and on - they have short bursts of activity and then stop, burst then stop. And yes there are other forms of intense exercise that is damaging, but fetch outstrips them all.

I cannot see why small dogs with high drive would present any particular issues - these type of dogs exists already and they are no less sound. I don't think the size of the dog is the issue, I think it's the size of everything else. One of the problems with agility is the equipment is designed for dogs of a certain size, so for dogs outside of those parameters equipment may put them under greater stress (courses and times in Aust are also not adapted for different size dogs so that can be an extra stress). Another problem I found here was so few trainers had experience running small dogs so their advise was sometimes not useful and other times dangerous. Tully's injury was partially equipment related - a small dog dropping off a seesaw is going to do much greater damage than a BC, and partially crappy training.

As for Border Jacks and Border Staffys - my understanding is they are mainly a flyball phenomena because small fast dogs are at a premium. Can't see why you would specifically want a Border Jack in agility when you could just run a BC.
__________________
Caro and the pups - Deska and Tully
& Tully's cats.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old Apr 11, 2014, 06:30 AM
labgirl labgirl is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Suffolk, UK
Posts: 2,129
Default

Oh yes Caro I think intensive games of fetch are disastrous for dogs' joints. The BC I know that developed arthritis at six was always having intense games of fetch. It's problems were all in its front wrists.

Another tip from the Crufts lady, she only does the seesaw maybe once or twice a week because of the jolt it gives the dog.

What really frustrates me is the people who walk their dog for an hour or more before agility to 'calm them', so the dog is physically tired and now being asked to do agility. It would be like asking a sprinter to run a short marathon before competing! It's just crazy and a tired dog is far more at risk of injury.
__________________
Sophie, owned by
Merlin (Blue Merle) 17/12/2010 [Shelridge The Magician]
Cadbury (Chocolate Labrador) 3/02/2008 [Poolehall Cadbury Choc]
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old Apr 13, 2014, 09:10 AM
SheltieChe SheltieChe is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,297
Default

From human standpoint running in general is really harsh on the body and can destroy your joints if you don't take care of yourself properly. You can ask any real runner, everyone has injuries. Also checking out painstaking effort people go to warm up and cool down, exercise and eat properly would be beneficial to create parallels with animal athletes since we just do not have enough animal science on the matter.
Sprint running is anaerobic activity and as such dog that runs fast needs superior fast clearance of lactic acid build up. So far we have only anecdotal evidence from PT chiro specialists that they are seeing increased number of injuries and decrease general health in athlete dogs. Granted we can not more talk about conformation rejects being sold as performance prospects, and I am sure among breeders that breed from sport dogs exclusively there is as anywhere number of really great ones that know and do every testing as well as number that still do BYB job. I am hesitant to blame it ONLY on poor structure although of course superior very specific and different from conformation standard structure has to be present for dog athlete.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old Apr 14, 2014, 03:43 AM
Caro's Avatar
Caro Caro is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Canberra, Australia
Posts: 4,562
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by labgirl View Post
What really frustrates me is the people who walk their dog for an hour or more before agility to 'calm them', so the dog is physically tired and now being asked to do agility. It would be like asking a sprinter to run a short marathon before competing! It's just crazy and a tired dog is far more at risk of injury.
I hadn't thought of that but it's true. There were always people with young dogs turning up to training after giving the dog a long walk or long session with a ball first.
__________________
Caro and the pups - Deska and Tully
& Tully's cats.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old Apr 14, 2014, 10:35 AM
Jess041's Avatar
Jess041 Jess041 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 985
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caro View Post
2 - Intensive exercise. Primarily fetch. Without a doubt every specialist has said they wish they could ban fetch. It puts so much strain on a dog's body and people will throw the ball with abandon thinking it is great to wear the dog out. Problem is a high drive dog does not know when to stop so they go far beyond what a dog's body can take. Tully was like this. Sheepdogs were not designed to go on and on - they have short bursts of activity and then stop, burst then stop. And yes there are other forms of intense exercise that is damaging, but fetch outstrips them all.
This is kinda scary.. we play fetch all the time. I think we're okay because we only play for 30 minutes or so at a time. She gets bored if we go any longer. It's scary to think that I might be hurting my dog...
__________________
Owned by:
Missy CGC FD FDX FDCh FDCh-S FDCh-G
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.