Dismiss Notice
Hello Guest, Welcome to the new version of Sheltieforums.com. If you have any questions regarding the new software, please post in the following section: Forum Upgrade

Breeding for high drive

Discussion in 'Agility' started by SheltieChe, Apr 9, 2014.

  1. SheltieChe

    SheltieChe Forums Sage

    3,304
    1
    0
    Jan 6, 2010
    Chicago
    HopeShelties, what is your opinion on breeding a lot of drive into smaller frame Shelties? I am hearing opinions from some top rehab vets chiro PT saying they are seeing increasing wear and tear on the health and structure with smaller dogs which specifically were bred for sports with tons of drive...
     
  2. HopeShelties

    HopeShelties Forums Enthusiast

    1,945
    1
    85
    Dec 2, 2008
    Kentucky
    I don't see a problem with breeding for a high drive Sheltie. I think the problem comes from it being bred for exclusively and ignoring other important aspects. I think there are a lot of people trying to breed just high drive dog A to high drive dog B with no thoughts of how they would compliment one another, and what each dogs strengths and weaknesses are. I think it is a couple of problems people are seeing.... One, structurally unsound dogs generally don't hold up as well over time. Two, dogs who trial very heavily (your every weekend type competitors) are more likely to break their dogs down faster just due to the wear and tear involved in competing so frequently. Three, and this goes more for some of the conformation lines, some of the dogs are flat out TOO heavy, and are going to break down because it is harder on their bodies to do what we ask of them than a lighter bodied dog.
    So, my thought is that the drive is not the problem. It is the frequency of competing, and then the structure/heavy bodies that are causing the dogs to break down. Also, I think it is being seen more often because as the sport has grown and changed, many people are competing much more heavily than in the past. I am not an expert, so take it all just as my opinion, but it is what I believe.
    I won't say who the dog was from, but I had once bought one sight unseen from someone who breeds specifically with performance in mind. I also wanted to compete in UKC conformation with the dog, so you would think given how much I compete, the level I want to compete at, and that I wanted to do UKC conformation, it should've been a fairly sound dog. It was not. It was so incredibly cow hocked that the hocks touched, it toe'd out (goes with the cow hocks), and it had a very overangulated rear. Its' rear looked like a GSD. I did not keep this dog. It was what I considered to be very very unsound, and regardless of what drive it had, it was not going to hold up to what I wanted to do. The dog needed to be in a pet home. I have heard since of this person selling others very unsound dogs as well for agility, knowing what kind of stress is put on these dogs bodies. This is probably a BIG reason these chiros/pts/rehab vets are seeing problems.
    I think in the past it was seen more so in breeds like BCs where the working people often breed for working ability only, so all other issues are ignored. As the sport of agility has grown though, there are people in other breeds breeding for sport to the exclusion of all else that should come into play. You have to look at the whole package though- drive, temperament, health, structure, sound sensitivity, trainability and an off switch... the dog shouldn't be over the top GO GO GO all of the time. That frantic never stop type of dog is not showing drive. It is showing just a lot of energy. Energy is not drive. A good dog should have an off switch.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
  3. ClantyreSheltie

    ClantyreSheltie Forums Sage

    2,876
    20
    130
    Feb 24, 2010
    Baltimore
    I second the person selling unsound dogs. It's probably the same person that sold a dog up here that had the exact same issues and never made it out of open. And the same person that had more than one litter of vWD affected puppies (one of the affected ones lives up here).

    But I agree with everything she said (not that you asked me :smile2:)

    I would add that I still see "pet or performance" dogs lumped together for sale by breeders with no experience in the upper levels of any kind of performance venue.
     
  4. HopeShelties

    HopeShelties Forums Enthusiast

    1,945
    1
    85
    Dec 2, 2008
    Kentucky
    Yes, and that is another problem. Just because it isn't going to make a conformation dog does not automatically make it a performance prospect. It takes a special dog to make a good upper level agility OR obedience dog. Yes, most can do it at some level, but not all can go on and become MACH or OTCH dogs. Also, not all dogs are capable of being fast, competitive dogs either. The majority of any 12 or 16" class at a trial is usually made up of dogs running between 2.5-4.5yps.
    And others, feel free to comment :) This was originally part of one of my other posts, and I asked Ashley to give it its' own topic so we could discuss it further :)
     
  5. Silaria

    Silaria Forums Sage

    3,522
    85
    150
    Sep 19, 2008
    Aspinwall, PA
    Thanks for this discussion. Since I'm on a waiting list for a puppy with my current breeder this helps me narrow down what I'm looking for in a puppy. This list:
    pretty much aligns with what I was thinking.

    Even though I want a dog with a little more drive, I need the temperament and "off" switch because I have to live with the dog 24x7 for between 12 and 15 years. Of that time, we will trial only a small percentage. (On average I trial 1 or 2 times a month.)

    The bitches (the dam and daughter) my breeder currently has in her breeding program both have more drive than Edan and CJ but are not over the top like some dogs I've seen. My puppy will come from either the dam or the daughter. I know someone who has one of the dam's puppies and he's a great dog with great personality and drivey; doing well in rally and puppy agility (tippy board, jumps on the ground, walking planks, etc.). From what his owner tells me, he's going to be FAST!

    That said, I've already stated to the breeder I want a dog with a little more drive but I also want proper structure (and a male). I put my name on her list so I have time to wait for the right dog with the right build and personality to come along; I'm not in a hurry.
     
  6. HopeShelties

    HopeShelties Forums Enthusiast

    1,945
    1
    85
    Dec 2, 2008
    Kentucky
    Yes, you really have to have a dog you can live with.
    You know, it's funny. As a puppy, my Ember was considered by some not to be driven because she wasn't frantic or over the top or high energy. She had a nice off switch. She had a lot of drive when I evaluated the litter, wanted to learn, wanted to please, but just wasn't a dog who was all over the place wacky. That's what I wanted. Here she is a few years later, and people who thought that have had to eat their words. She's very driven, and will be one of my areas fastest 16" dogs. I think there is a big misconception about what drive is. It really isn't the dog who is on all of the time. I don't want that. I don't want to live with a dog who doesn't stop and is just frantic all of the time. She's really a perfect balance. Easy to live with, but once I am ready to go do something, so is she.
     
  7. SheltieChe

    SheltieChe Forums Sage

    3,304
    1
    0
    Jan 6, 2010
    Chicago
    However there is no going around that it takes more work for smaller frame dog to run as fast as bigger BC. When I look at Leo stride, it takes 3 of his to come up to one of CheĀ“s, who is ratehr BC size:biggrin2:
    Also the problem seen by Chiro/ PT people is a widespread one, not localized to specific area, I am hearing it from many people.
    And now on the agility playground coming all those border staffies and border jacks...
     
  8. ClantyreSheltie

    ClantyreSheltie Forums Sage

    2,876
    20
    130
    Feb 24, 2010
    Baltimore
    Not as many as you think. I've only seen one in competition, and it was in Novice, and I know one other person with one, but I don't know that he trials.

    I think people are figuring out they are not good dogs to live with.
     
  9. labgirl

    labgirl Forums Sage

    2,566
    37
    130
    Feb 22, 2009
    Suffolk, UK
    This is very interesting. I have been training with a Crufts agility champion handler and she aims for long-term agility with her dogs.

    She was talking about tight turns last night, and how many people with fast dogs drive into jump turns and this causes great strain on the dogs joints as it lands and pivots to do the turn. She teaches the dog different 'gears', so fifth gear is for flat out, fourth for shallow turns and third, the slowest, for wing wraps. The idea is to save the dog's joints.

    She also advises against over exercise and over training. I think when people have a high drive dog they are tempted to do lots of intense training and exercise to wear it out. I have seen this in BCs that have developed arthritis as young as 6.

    Her methods seem to work, considering she is competing at top level, her spaniel passed away at 12 (competed until it was 10) with no signs of arthritis and her Kelpie is 8 with no arthritis issues.

    I rest Merlin a lot more since I have been training with her and only train twice a week instead of everyday. We do clicker stuff on non agility days to keep his brain stimulated.
     
  10. helps

    helps Forums Enthusiast

    283
    0
    0
    Feb 21, 2011
    CR, Europe
    Health should always come first, that's for sure if you want your dog to compete for the rest of his life. You want to pay attention to already mentioned qualities - health, drive, structure (quite important, imo - e.g. i see lot of 'heavy' dogs who jump with difficulty and owners getting mad why dog keeps dropping bars), temperament and sound sensitivity becomes especially relevant with sensitive breed like shelties. Wouldn't think of an off switch if you didn't mentioned it, but you definitely want dog for life first and dog for performance second. My friend got herself border collie and that dog is simply unbearable, She's very over the top, making high pitch noises greeting people, running around like maniac, she's got big issues with focusing on work etc. It seems that dog never stops. So yea, drive is great, but drive vs control needs to be in balance. I'm really wondering how that dog is gonna turn out in few years. She's almost two years old now, but I've never seen such a frantic behavior in a dog. She can't even focus for too long on the course. She can do like five obstacles in a row without going off. You can bet that she's fast but again without control it's useless. In general though it's pretty tough to pick the right dog for agility and life. I know some of my friends thought they were getting agility dog of their dreams and it didn't quite turned like that.

    edit: We also train only twice per week and sometimes competition at the weekends. On special occasion we trained maybe few days in a row, but everyday training is no good, imo. As you say there's many other things you can do to keep your dog's head busy.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2014

Share This Page