ISC To be discontinued?

[corbinam]

Originally Posted by HopeShelties

But would you go look at a sheltie who's pedigree has *no* titles because they've been competed for so long in other venues that there is no proof that they've done anything? That, to most, would signify a BYB.

Do you mean they have no titles of any kind? Or just no AKC titles?

Because I would think that when looking for a performance dog a potential buyer would talk to the breeder to see if the dogs have competed or received titles in any venue.

Also, performance breeders usually become in demand by being seen at shows, or through word of mouth. I don't think lack of titles from AKC would deter a potential buyer if they are serious, nor would it stop a breeder from being in demand if they are out competing and succeeding with their dogs in a competitive venue.

[ClantyreSheltie]

Originally Posted by HopeShelties

But would you go look at a sheltie who's pedigree has *no* titles because they've been competed for so long in other venues that there is no proof that they've done anything? That, to most, would signify a BYB.

http://www.pedigreelines.com/dog/pedigree/id/66681

Tell me, do you think this pedigree is capable of producing good performance dogs? If all we are looking at is paper and the number of titles after the name, then one would say no.

I'll tell you that the dam has produced two OTCH titles out of the two puppies she has produced, though not a performance title in the bunch.

Titles aren't everything. Solid genes from a solid family gets you further than breeding random "performance" dogs or to the VCX flavor of the month. I obviously don't care about breeding to titles, but if I were, I would certainly want to see ALL the titles, not just AKC or CKC or whatever. Give me the whole list, please.

With all that said, I only do AKC because I'm cheap, and I don't want to have to learn the rules of another venue. I'm almost mentally ready for USDAA, though.

[BlizzardTreats]

Originally Posted by HopeShelties

But would you go look at a sheltie who's pedigree has *no* titles because they've been competed for so long in other venues that there is no proof that they've done anything? That, to most, would signify a BYB.

All those other venues have awesome record keeping of all titles acheive, etc....so any potential buyer can easier get proof of success in other venues.

....my world team dog's parent's don't have any performance titles (not even in any other venues!!).... :). I look at the lines....other puppies who have gone to other performance homes to get an idea of what 'is in the lines' and the potential. You gotta get a dog to a performance home in order to get the titles....there are countless 'world team quality' dogs out there that spend there days just as awesome house pets - not in performance homes....but that would still produce awesome performance pups :).

[HopeShelties]

I will say I don't like to look at lines that haven't proven themselves in performance. I've encountered too many breeders who will tell me all about how great a performance prospect they think their puppy is only to meet it and find very little to like in it as a performance prospect. No, not everything from someone who breeds with the goal of performance will make a good performance dog, but I like bettering my odds in feeling that breeder is breeding with what I am wanting to do in mind, and that they understand what it takes and are less likely to try to sell me a dog who isn't going to make much in performance. I told a breeder in Michigan what I was looking for, and she assured me, yes, that this dog was exactly what I was looking for. It was flown to my house and had no chance of being a great performance dog. It was THE most backward, sound sensitive, easily frightened sheltie I have ever met. Wanted nothing to do with me, had little desire to please. Just awful for agility. This was a five month old. I would've spent a LONG time working through pre-existing issues. There are breeders I have run into who have little clue what kind of dog is needed to be successful.
I am trying to build my name right now out there. People are getting to know who I am, and I am becoming better able to place the dogs I feel have a good shot of making nice performance dogs into the homes they need to be in. I do feel it helps when I can list that the parents have been successful to find the homes I want. My dogs being out there and earning titles is helping people to get to know my dogs. Until I have a number of dogs out there competing and people really know them, every title in AKC I can get, every trial I can do that gets my dogs better known is helping me, and is something I need to get my dogs into performance homes.
No, a title isn't the end all be all, but I do think it is a good start. After all, I can think of several big name stud dogs with agility titles who I have researched and found to be extremely slow in agility, and without proof the puppies can do better, won't touch the line.
I am also talking about people wanting to get started in agility. Some of the homes I have sold to are new to agility, and it is because of the titles that they came to look at my dogs. I do need the newbies to come look. I haven't been breeding long enough, or out there long enough. The oldest I've bred are just now 3 years old, and are just starting to really show what they can do. Not everyone knows where to look to find out what a dog has or hasn't done in other venues. Not everyone has been to countless trials and has seen what is out there.

[BlizzardTreats]

Originally Posted by HopeShelties

I will say I don't like to look at lines that haven't proven themselves in performance. I've encountered too many breeders who will tell me all about how great a performance prospect they think their puppy is only to meet it and find very little to like in it as a performance prospect. No, not everything from someone who breeds with the goal of performance will make a good performance dog, but I like bettering my odds in feeling that breeder is breeding with what I am wanting to do in mind, and that they understand what it takes and are less likely to try to sell me a dog who isn't going to make much in performance. I told a breeder in Michigan what I was looking for, and she assured me, yes, that this dog was exactly what I was looking for. It was flown to my house and had no chance of being a great performance dog. It was THE most backward, sound sensitive, easily frightened sheltie I have ever met. Wanted nothing to do with me, had little desire to please. Just awful for agility. This was a five month old. I would've spent a LONG time working through pre-existing issues. There are breeders I have run into who have little clue what kind of dog is needed to be successful.
I am trying to build my name right now out there. People are getting to know who I am, and I am becoming better able to place the dogs I feel have a good shot of making nice performance dogs into the homes they need to be in. I do feel it helps when I can list that the parents have been successful to find the homes I want. My dogs being out there and earning titles is helping people to get to know my dogs. Until I have a number of dogs out there competing and people really know them, every title in AKC I can get, every trial I can do that gets my dogs better known is helping me, and is something I need to get my dogs into performance homes.
No, a title isn't the end all be all, but I do think it is a good start. After all, I can think of several big name stud dogs with agility titles who I have researched and found to be extremely slow in agility, and without proof the puppies can do better, won't touch the line.
I am also talking about people wanting to get started in agility. Some of the homes I have sold to are new to agility, and it is because of the titles that they came to look at my dogs. I do need the newbies to come look. I haven't been breeding long enough, or out there long enough. The oldest I've bred are just now 3 years old, and are just starting to really show what they can do. Not everyone knows where to look to find out what a dog has or hasn't done in other venues. Not everyone has been to countless trials and has seen what is out there.

Agree 100% - you sound like you are doing everything you can to great dogs and get them into performance homes. I totally agree that the average potential performance home does look for those AKC/CKC titles when first getting into the sports....but I don't think it takes long for good breeders to build up a reputation that will quickly have potential puppy buyers looking past those CKC/AKC titles. I know a lot of breeders in the same position - want the CKC/AKC titles as that's what shows....until more and more 'new' people start to recognize the more diffucult venues such as USDAA and UKI and start asking breeders what titles they have in these venues, I do understand the need for the AKC/CKC titles....I just wish it didn't have to be like that as I think it limits some of these breeders that have incredible dogs that can be doing really well at these more difficult venues but, like most people, can't afford to be doing every venue so make the choice to do the AKC/CKC.....crossing my fingers 10 yrs from now it will be different (or, better yet, the AKC/CKC step up and start offering more challenges )

[HopeShelties]

It doesnt help either that the state I live in is pretty much the agiloty dead zone. Most of the locals have no desire to compete at a higher level. AKC is where most of them compete but there are a lot doing nadac and cpe as well. Few have the desire to do isc or usdaa.
The sad thing is I train to a much higher level than I have to trial. The things seen in isc arent allowed on a regular course. It is why I liked the isc courses.

[SheltieChe]

I have had some interesting experience in being able to observe litter evaluations and have sat on 2 evaluations for "high end" fly ball competition breeder and all things were done right- parents with proven success, actually one of them was repeat breeding with first litter wildly successful etc breeder was boasting long list of competition homes lined up for the puppies and moaning she did not have enough pet homes...
and results were not impressive- I do not remember exact numbers but only 1 or 2 pups out of each litter had what it takes to make it easy to see they will be great performance dog, rest of them and each litter was substantial like 6-7 pups each were just ok, regular pups, and some were def suited for pet homes only. So when someone boast that this high performance dog has sired this and this and their puppies are there and there I keep asking myself- just how many puppies that that dog sired ended up in regular pet homes? or should have ended? Or did that great because they went to great experienced competitors?
OTOH I have had some experience with our local CISR and I have to say some people may not be breeders but when Natalie says she had agility dog avail, it means dog has terrific potential. I think I just might ask her for my next agility dog
Just putting it out here as food for the thought, I def understand how much it takes to build successful breeding program with qualities one want to see and I have seen around few too many dogs that should not have been bred to begin with, performance or not...