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Brindle & Other Non-Standard Colors

Discussion in 'Sheltie Colors' started by ♥Love Herds♥, Mar 30, 2014.

  1. ♥Love Herds♥

    ♥Love Herds♥ Forums Novice

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    Lately, I've been interested in non-standard(or unusual) colors in the breed. I have no desire to obtain one, but I do want to learn more about non-standard colors.

    I know brindle is disqualified, & that it's extremely rare in the breed.But what other non-standard colors are there?

    Thanks
     
  2. ClantyreSheltie

    ClantyreSheltie Forums Sage

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    The place to start is learning basic color genetics. There are (I think) 5 genes that control base color, and in Shelties, 4 of them are set, so there is no variation. Only one of those, Agouti, has any influence on what we see. So any color caused by any of those other genes indicates a mix. So if you see brindle, red, liver, solid black (like a Cocker), brindle, blue (dilute black), lilac (dilute chocolate), etc., etc., it's not a real Sheltie.
     
  3. Tabitha

    Tabitha Forums Enthusiast

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    Rachael, I may be misreading, but it sounds like your saying liver, brindle, and even blue and red shelties aren't pure breed. Now I know I must be reading it wrong because that's very untrue and you as a breeder should know this. Everyone here knows blues and red sables can be pure blood just as much as any other sheltie color. There have been pure blood AKC registered shelties in the other colors you mentioned as well. I heard of a sheltie a while back that was the perfect show and breeding dog but was neutered because he was liver colored. Brindle is the most uncommon, and certainly the most questionable of colors, but it does happen in shelties. Why else would it be listed as a faulty color if it didn't come up every once in a blue moon. Same with gay tails. There a fault but just because a sheltie has one doesn't mean they have husky in them!:wink2:
     
  4. JLSOhio51

    JLSOhio51 Forums Enthusiast

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    I must say that I had a similar response to the earlier comment as Tabitha. I did not post a comment because I have much to learn about what makes a Sheltie a Sheltie and I know even less about genetics. I will await the discussion here with baited breath because my interest has been piqued. But, before I get to the point of my post I have a question. What the heck is a "gay tail"?

    OK. Assuming that Tabitha has correctly read the earlier post and therefore blues (et al) are not "real Shelties" (per the commenter), why do the AKC and other registries not only allow registration but also allow competition as a pure breed? Please note: This question is not motivated by a sense of desire to argue a point or to provide counterpoint, I simply want to understand the conversation.
     
  5. EJHUNTL

    EJHUNTL Forums Enthusiast

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    I think a "gay " tail is one that curls up over the back like in a husky?
     
  6. Tabitha

    Tabitha Forums Enthusiast

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    It's a tail which stands straght up or flips over the dog's back. In my dogs both Sarah and Dixie have gay tails. I'll see if I can find you an example.

    EDIT: Here's Dixie
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2014
  7. tofu pup

    tofu pup Moderator

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    Rachael means "blue" and "red" dogs that are colored like "blue" and "red" Dobermans... not blue merle and red-sable Shelties. I'm fairly certain she knows what she's talking about.

    Brindles are so profoundly unusual that I would wager that the gene just doesn't exist in the breed any more. It may have existed in the breed in the past, or it may have been written in as a DQ because there were issues with outcrossed dogs.

    If someone tells you they have a brindle Sheltie, or a liver Sheltie, or a lilac Sheltie, it's more likely that the dog in question isn't a purebred Sheltie than that a Super Special Rare Amazing Gene is at work. It may be genetically possible to have a purebred liver Sheltie, but numbers-wise, it's more likely that someone's Aussie fell into the pot.

    Sheltie colors are pretty basic. They come in Sable and Black, with or without tan markings, and with or without the merle dilution pattern, and with a varying amount of Irish-marked white. There aren't a lot of other options. If you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras.
     
  8. Tabitha

    Tabitha Forums Enthusiast

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    Ok, I like that one.:wink2: You make a very good point. This is one of the many reasons why I love SN, you can learn something new every day!:winkgrin:
     
  9. ClantyreSheltie

    ClantyreSheltie Forums Sage

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    So, go back to my very first sentence, where I said the best place to start is by learning basic color genetics. It's also important to understand the difference between a "color" and a "pattern".

    Start here: http://www.bryningbordercollies.com/Border-Collie-Colours

    Then learn Standard Poodle and Labrador Retriever inheritance.

    Then you can tell me what I "should" know.

    There are some assumptions that one can make in our breed based on color, and one of those assumptions is that a "Sheltie" that is brindled is a mix.

    One of the other things that you will quickly learn is that the frequency of "rare" colored dogs, in general, decreased significantly when DNA testing was introduced. As soon as someone pops up with a "rare" color, the next thing they should pop up with is DNA verification of parentage. Barring that, it should be assumed the dog is a mix.
     
  10. ClantyreSheltie

    ClantyreSheltie Forums Sage

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    So yes, we do rarely have dilute black dogs, but it's not the same as blue like what is seen in Standard Poodles. And I was not referring to merles (again color versus pattern)

    So there is once case that I know of where a dilute black dog (without tan, if I remember) was registered and finished it's championship. It was probably registered as a bi-black, and the judges chose to award it points without regard to the color fault. AKC doesn't check color registrations, and the competition is based on the judges knowledge of the standard.
     

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