Speed: Genetics or Training?

[corbinam]

Obviously this is an opinion question, and the answer probably lies somewhere in between.

But what do you think--does speed come mostly from genetics or training?

I'm asking this because I always find it interesting to look at the successful agility shelties. Many are from "performance" breeders, but many are from conformation lines. I think more and more we'll see the performance lines take over, but with the right trainer I've seen a lot of "conformation" dogs do extremely well.

I'm a good example because I have two, somewhat closely related ("conformation" bred) dogs that have very different levels of speed. Bentley is consistent, but we can't get the speed out of him that we would need to compete at a top level. (For example, he often runs clean in Steeplechase, but doesn't place because he isn't fast enough).

Lexi, on the other hand, has always done everything at top speed. I never intentionally rewarded speed, but thinking back, I know that we encouraged it. But even in teaching her to lay down, it was "PLOP", immediate. Her recalls have always been full speed, etc.

With Lexi, we're obviously teaching control, and with Bentley, speed. I am seeing improvement in Lexi's control, but not much improvement over the past year on Bentley's speed.

So what do you think? Is it mostly taught? How big of a factor is genetics?

[biowicks]

I think genetics is a huge factor. Speed, in bursts, like you need in flyball and agility, is determined by the amount of muscle fiber you have that is of the 'fast twitch' variety. Fast twitch fibers allow for an instant burst of energy. Human sprinters have a large percentage of those fibers. Slow twitch muscle fibers allow for long, sustained movement. Marathon runners will have a large proportion of those. As dogs are mammals like us, I would imagine that individuals vary in the proportions of those fibers, just like in humans. And, those proportions are genetically controlled. So, I would think a good selective breeding program could gradually produce dogs with larger percentages of the desired type of muscle fiber. My two cents!

[HopeShelties]

I think genetics does play a large part, but a poor trainer can definitely make a dog who would be faster into a slow dog, and a good trainer can certainly enhance a dog who may not have been as impressive otherwise. There are some families who seem to produce drive and speed more so than others.
If you go through dogshowscores.com, and research the Himark dogs for instance, you'll find certain people tend not to get a lot out of their dogs, and that some of the stud dogs they own don't have much speed at all. Then there are other people who can get a lot out of them. The same goes for Rebound. He produced a lot of really nice drive and speed, and those who know how to ask for it, and bring the dog along in a way that allows them to use it and keep their confidence up in what they do have been rewarded with very fast, driven dogs. There are two people I personally know with them though who have made the dogs slow. My Rebound grandpup is going to be amazing.
I do think drive and speed can be produced in conformation lines as well, but it is harder without knowing where to go to to find it, and if that person knows enough about what we as agility people want to be able to give you a dog with the drive and speed. While not every dog from someone specializing in agility is going to be high drive and fast, I do think they have a better understanding of what we want. They have a proven track record of being able to pick it out, and put it where it needs to be. It is easier to go to them and say you want a high drive dog and be able to get it than to go to a conformation breeder and say that and be able to get it.
Not every dog is capable of being high drive and fast. I have had dogs from different lines who are naturally fast and driven, and some that no matter what you did weren't going to be any fun to run. I think that it is easier to squash drive and speed in a dog to build up one who doesn't naturally have it, so it is really easier to start out with one who does have it to begin with.
There is variance in every litter. One of my most interesting was my litter of six that was born three years ago. The pick puppy, as per my agility instructor at the time, was one I didn't feel could do both conformation and agility, so I placed her. She was very driven. She went to a 4h kid. He wound up doing a lot to make her stick to his side, and asked for accuracy, accuracy, accuracy right from the start. As an adult, she is not very impressive because of the training that has been done. A second one went to my best friend. She was a lot like a BC. She is very high drive, and high energy. She is making a really nice dog for my friend. Another went to what was supposed to be an agility/obedience home. They got too busy, and haven't done that, and the dog has wound up really being too much for her situation, but she loves him and won't return him. The other little girl is more moderate in drive, and has stayed that way as an adult. The other boy probably had the least drive shown as a puppy, and went to a pet home. He has stayed that way, and is content being a pet. He isn't like his brother who is a lot to live with without a job. The one I kept was a nice balance. She has a lot of drive with a good off switch. She isn't a party girl like her BC like sister, but is actually higher drive, and has more desire to please than her sister. She is getting ready to debut in akc agility, and once she gets into excellent will be a force to be reckoned with. She is very fast and driven. I know my friend and I have done a lot to foster speed in them. As a result, my Ember is all about speed.

[Jess041]

Originally Posted by corbinam

Lexi, on the other hand, has always done everything at top speed. I never intentionally rewarded speed, but thinking back, I know that we encouraged it. But even in teaching her to lay down, it was "PLOP", immediate. Her recalls have always been full speed, etc.

Lexi sounds a lot like Missy. She did (and sometime still does) the plop thing too. She does everything with a lot of enthusiasm! When she was first fetching with the chuck it, she would run full speed to get the ball, but take her sweet time coming back. She wouldn't walk back, but it definitely wasn't full speed! When we started doing flyball, we did a lot of power recalls where she basically chases me, full speed, over the jumps. To encourage her to bring the ball back at full speed even with just regular fetch, I started running backwards a bit, just to get that chase instinct going, and it worked. Now she runs full speed to bring the ball back too.

I think just like humans, dogs can be genetically inclined to be athletic. But that doesn't mean the dog will be an agility/flyball/whatever superstar. Also, like you said, dogs can come from conformation lines and still be great athletes. I do think a lot of it has to do with training and how much time you put into it.

[Justicemom]

I think it is a combination of both. If they don't have the personality for drive and speed it is very hard to train it into them. Also if they don't have the structure for good reach, drive and stamina it won't be there either. You can enhance or destroy what nature gave them by training. But just like shyness or outgoing personality can be influenced by socialization you can never make a geneticly shy dog as outgoing as a geneticly outgoing dog with equally socializtion.

Also like Stacey stated not all puppies in a litter will equal. Birch is alot like his dad- active quick on his feet and at times very intense. There were 3other puppies in his litter that where similar. 2 I thought who could be good performance dogs if trained right and 2 that I wouldn't have placed in performance homes. At 16 months, I was total right about the 2 who wouldn't be suitable. Birch with his personality, structure and drive is so far all I thought he would be . He would like be faster if I could keep up.

Diva was the same I could see the intensity in her at 8 weeks and she was very quick and light on her feet. Combo with her structure and fast dog. If Ember had the same drive and temperment as Diva she still wouldn't be as fast because her structure won't allow it.

When I look for a performance dog, I look for an outgoing, confident puppy, who has good prey drive ie follow a toy or chase a ball bring it back bonus!, who seems to to have an natural affinity for people and will look at them and not just blow them off. mod to low touch senitivity, mod to low noise senitivity and then lastly but most importantly good to superior structure. If the parents have similar triats all the better. I have followed this for my last 2 dogs and it has worked out well.

[Hurtseverywhere]

Definately both but while you can train some I think that to be really succesfull the dog needs to have the initial drive to do the sport and love it.
Cosmo Does it to please me, Storm Just loves to do it period
For me its actually funny as MY slow and reliable dog was from a performance breeder Cosmo like Bentley hardly ever make an error but course time is his nemisis and the always on speed deamon was from a dedicated conformation breeder, Storm was the first dog that she ever allowed to go to an agility home ever in 15+ years of breeding, She has since placed about 1/3rd of her pups into agility homes as a matter of fact next year Storm will have 2 cousins to compete against in the same club we trial at. LIke with Lexi , Storm is all about Control if you can maintain it you will have a great run, if you can't then it's all over Baby because she's just going to fly over Contacts the heck with this Target or Spot stuuf Dad,or miss weave entrys, or try and jump a spred jump from 6 feet back instead of 3 feet and almost Make it because she Can and it's fun dad watch me go. Nothing drives her more crazy then tight box work she gust growls at you the entire time you are doing it, she will do it but she definately doesn't like it. as a matter of fact the focus of our training since the last trail has been slow tight compact control courses and she's not Impressed at all.

[Sealtainn]

No amount of training will get you past a structural limitation.
That said, even from the same litter not all pups have been created equal.
Structure & temperament may vary amongst litter-mates.
With the right owner the best can be brought out of any of them, but that best will vary. Even if you know what to look for you still have to successfully claim the pup you want. I know of "top" handlers who were lucky or persuasive enough to choose the pick of their litters & their pups have grown up to prove their worth. I also know other litter-mates to "top" dogs, even with other "top" handlers that haven't lived up to the same level of achievement yet they are performing up to their own potential - the best that they can be.