Is he ready?

[SheltieChe]

Originally Posted by 2GoodDogs

Now to go back to working on those sit stays...

what would you suggest I try?

My answer is get Crate Games. I really would not know how to teach stays without them and beauty is I do not even " teach" it, comes "built in" with games.
It is all about criteria that starts in living room and how well dog knows it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5zCik-kZ3M

[2GoodDogs]

Cool, I've got that DVD... and the 12 weave poles one...

I can send Bobby to the crate from any room in the house, and from the training building to his crate in the car from the parking lot. he will hang out with the door open ... how does this relate to the group ring exercise?

Puppy Justus just isn't ready yet, his stay work is mostly done on a platform and I haven't just stood in front of him, I'm already disappearing from sight, setting jumps, etc... so he needs to know stay in the context of me right next or in front of him for the duration...

But, if you have had a utility dog that was wanting UDX legs and can consistently qualify in utility and the individual open exercises, and only makes the standing up while handler leaves ring, how did you overcome that?

Bobby does not make these errors at show and go's (not lately anyway - we had 3 at different places before I entered him) and we have two show and go's the next two weekends...

Sorry. I don't mean to be dismissive with any suggestion. I am open to all suggestions and will try almost anything except giving up. :)

I am just a little frustrated. We have had two utility titles for nearly two years and all I am asking for is a group stay... :) :) :)

PS - bobby did a five minute sit stay on the bed while I put on makeup and got ready for work this morning. Nice, comfy warm bed and he held his sit like a soldier... his at home and real life stays are solid.

[Justicemom]

Originally Posted by 2GoodDogs

.PS - bobby did a five minute sit stay on the bed while I put on makeup and got ready for work this morning. Nice, comfy warm bed and he held his sit like a soldier... his at home and real life stays are solid.

I hear you and I feel for you.

If I knew the answer Justice would have his AKC OTCH. The only reason he doesn't is those darn sit stays. He blew atleast 100 OTCH points and his Open 1st by laying down on his sits. Justice can hold a sit anywhere and I mean anywhere . The front sit of my car with the windshield wipers going. While I throw hot dogs all around the floor, when I play ball with the other dogs, when squirrels and bunnies run by, you name it he holds the stay. But the ring, sigh, he lays down 1/2 the time and that was after months of retraining. It is stress related I am sure.

What I did was go back to taking one step away from him and go back and reward then 2 steps ,then 3 steps. then across the ring for 1 sec, reward, then 2 secs rewards up to 5 mins and then OOS for 1 secs, etc until I was up to 10 mins and then I just proofed and proofed and then went into the ring like I didn't care as I noticed that the crappy runs is when he stayed up. Like I said even then it was only 1/2 the time he would stay up. UKC was better for us because if he went down i could leave afterwards and not to the down.

I got alot of advice from OTCH handlers on how to "fix it" but most suggestions I wouldn't do because a OTCH was not worth the damage to my relationship with my dog that i am sure those methods would have caused. So he is retired with 52 OTCH points and both UB wins.

One last suggestion, get him check by a chiro because there was a period of time that Justice's sit stay were due to his back being out. I am sure that's when he learned that he could down in the ring without getting in trouble.

[2GoodDogs]

Thanks, now that is good advice!

I am not going to get rough with him. I did that to Ms. Sasha UCDX, CDX, RA - I fixed her sit stay problem it with a chin smack that made her teeth rattle. And I have never forgiven myself. I do not hit dogs, ever again. That one time was a lifetime of regret.

And.. Bobby? If I hit him he wouldn't work for me. Corrections have to be clever not clobbering...

I will go back to stepping away like you prescribed. Thanks!

[SheltieChe]

If you watch CG it is not about dog liking crate or running towards it with success. It is about criteria and self control.
Bob Bailey attributes training problems to: timing, criteria or rate of reinforcement. Not maintaining sit is a criteria problem IMHO. The way Crate games are build criteria is crystal clear- do not move until released. So the word stay is eliminated by itself as it is always sit maintain, down maintain till released. Chris Bach teaches that as well, you might want to rent her tapes either from Tawzerdogs or Bowwowflix.
Inability to maintain sit under stress is just a feedback from the dog that criteria of sit is not proofed enough or understood. You need to be creative and come up with enough stress outside of the ring so criteria is maintained no matter what. For example if I want to train/ proof dumbbell hold I will test understanding by asking dog to hold dowel and then put a piece of steak into his mouth. If he still hold the dowel I think it is a good sign he understands task. If he drops dowel in order to chew the steak, he does not have an understanding of the job.
I do not particularly care about competing in obedience but I like messing with dog brains Today for example I felt lazy so for training they were into sit on the mat while I sprinkled handful of the kibble around them and around the room. They maintained sit which was about 90 seconds and then on release were allowed to run around looking for kibble. It was fun for everybody.
As Justicemom mentioned, I would eliminate physical problems with not maintaining sit in the first place of course.
This series are about agility but advise is very clear and useful for dogs in ANY sport.
http://www.runorstop.com/

[SheltieChe]

To clarify... simple does not mean easy. Just because explanation is simple does not mean that maintaining criteria is easy. But that is what separates great trainers from the rest.
My dogs are reflection of my training abilities and while we have plenty of swiss cheese holes in our training we are not sweating them and having fun. But then again I could care less about ribbons or titles, I am just regular pet owner who likes to mess with dog brains. I would much prefer to take my dogs into petstore, put them into down and walk around for 5 minutes, only to find them in same place in same position. Now this is an achievement in my book:biggrin2

[Justicemom]

Originally Posted by SheltieChe

If you watch CG it is not about dog liking crate or running towards it with success. It is about criteria and self control.
Bob Bailey attributes training problems to: timing, criteria or rate of reinforcement. Not maintaining sit is a criteria problem IMHO. The way Crate games are build criteria is crystal clear- do not move until released. So the word stay is eliminated by itself as it is always sit maintain, down maintain till released. Chris Bach teaches that as well, you might want to rent her tapes either from Tawzerdogs or Bowwowflix.
Inability to maintain sit under stress is just a feedback from the dog that criteria of sit is not proofed enough or understood. You need to be creative and come up with enough stress outside of the ring so criteria is maintained no matter what. For example if I want to train/ proof dumbbell hold I will test understanding by asking dog to hold dowel and then put a piece of steak into his mouth. If he still hold the dowel I think it is a good sign he understands task. If he drops dowel in order to chew the steak, he does not have an understanding of the job.
I do not particularly care about competing in obedience but I like messing with dog brains Today for example I felt lazy so for training they were into sit on the mat while I sprinkled handful of the kibble around them and around the room. They maintained sit which was about 90 seconds and then on release were allowed to run around looking for kibble. It was fun for everybody.
As Justicemom mentioned, I would eliminate physical problems with not maintaining sit in the first place of course.
This series are about agility but advise is very clear and useful for dogs in ANY sport.
http://www.runorstop.com/

So I am going to ask how you would proof a sit stay in a ring environment when the dog knows that they can lay down and the behavior is self rewarding. In my dogs case, I can tell you he knows that sit means sit until released and down means down until release. He could do your kibble exercise for 30 mins if I was mean. I have "accidentally" told him to sit and walked away and found him sitting in the middle of the livingroom 30 mins later looking sad but not willing to move until I tell him. But in a ring, he is 50/50 at best.

I believe this kind of behavior/training problem is a superstitious behavior that the dog learn by accident in a certain situation ie the ring and the behavior when allow to continue is becomes reinforced. I agree the criteria in the trial situation is not clear for the dog but how do you resolve that fact when the behavior only occurs in that situation. That fact that Bobby stayed up in the fun matches tells me it is related to his handlers stress levels. She projects a different smell, movement, voice pitch, all probably unconsiously, in real trials and that paired with the enviornment triggers the behavior. How do you create it outside of a real trial?

That's why I slowly suggested building back up the value for staying in the sit and then proof with distractions. This is not a beginner dog with poor impulse control or understanding. He is a UD dog and that takes so much discipline and ability to work and think on your own it is mind boggling.

[SheltieChe]

Originally Posted by Justicemom

I hear you and I feel for you.



What I did was go back to taking one step away from him and go back and reward then 2 steps ,then 3 steps. then across the ring for 1 sec, reward, then 2 secs rewards up to 5 mins and then OOS for 1 secs, etc until I was up to 10 mins and then I just proofed and proofed and then went into the ring like I didn't care as I noticed that the crappy runs is when he stayed up. Like I said even then it was only 1/2 the time he would stay up. UKC was better for us because if he went down i could leave afterwards and not to the down.

Justicemom, I pm you. I have couple of issues with this method. You are building value for the duration of the behavior but I do not think it is duration value that is a problem, it is release that is a problem. Second- it still does not give dog information what not to do during this duration behavior.
Another thing that bothers me- how do you expect going from all those tons of cookies go down to nothing in the ring and still have same behavior?
I believe obedience is a place where your triggers have to be golden. The value for you, the owner, has to be massive compare to agility or flyball IMHO just because it is much less stimulating to the dog.
here is brilliant article "Competition= sucks to be the dog"
http://susangarrettdogagility.com/20...-dog-training/

[2GoodDogs]

SheltieChe, respectfully, I appreciate your interest in my "problem" however, it is not like taking my car to be repaired to a doctor and not a mechanic.

I understand your affection for Susan Garrett, and I appreciate that you like to tinker with dog minds... however, dog minds are not all the same.

Obedience is a link between dog and handler that is emotional and varies in subtilties.

My anwser to the sit stay, is within me. It is not external.

I've been in obedience for so many years, I've seen dogs overcome obstacles and not, and the big difference is in the handler looking in the mirror and finding the answer.

Of course, I'll take Bobby in to see that he is not experiencing pain in the sit stay. I can only hope that is the problem and a chiropractic adjustment is all it would take to put him back into the awards ring!

I did not read the article on it sucking to be an obedience dog. I don't believe that it does. Nor does it make life more special. My dog has a job, a purpose and gets to go places and do things and is such a special life mate to me that I think it is worth it to him to do a few minutes work about a dozen times a year...