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Can a sable and tri produce sable merles?

Discussion in 'Sheltie Colors' started by xerospin, Nov 18, 2011.

  1. xerospin

    xerospin Forums Enthusiast

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  2. ClantyreSheltie

    ClantyreSheltie Forums Sage

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    In theory, any offspring of a merle can produce merle, whether they exhibit the merle markings or not. Merle is not a binary (on/off) gene, it's more a sliding scale gene. Where a dog can carry enough merle to produce it without expressing it. This is why we sometimes see two solid appearing dogs produce a merle. Or a double merle producing a Solid dog.

    In reality, that occurrence is rare enough that I would want to see a three generation pedigree. Until I see that, I assume there was some fence jumping, which is the simplest explanation for a merle popping up.

    The other issue here is that the sable must be tri-factored for a blue merle to be produced, so again, since that is not an obviously tri-factored sable, I want to see a three generation pedigree.

    Clear as mud, ya?
     
  3. ClantyreSheltie

    ClantyreSheltie Forums Sage

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    Nevermind, I see the merle eye in the sable.

    The merle gene came from the sable dog.

    Merle is not color specific, it can be inherited and expressed on either color (black or brown). It's just harder to see in brown dogs, but that blue eye is pretty much a dead giveaway. Still want to see the pedigree. : )
     
  4. xerospin

    xerospin Forums Enthusiast

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    thanks for clearing it up... a little :p I thought alfie's mum's a pure sable? she looks sable to me @@ I dont see a blue eye on her. In this litter there were 2 sables and 2 sable merles. I always thought it came from the father :/ So the mother is the one carrying that gene I assume?

    His papers I left at my parent's house. But I wouldnt trust Taiwan's pedigree paper too much. Many can be forged. There're dogs still producing offsprings years after passing away... I remember his dad is an import from Japan. Mum I'm not too sure, I can ask his breeder though.

    heres another picture of the mother. I'm a new to shelties, you mean she has one merle eye? I can't really tell lol

    http://f23.yahoofs.com/myper/R1z5KB.XRUS.3dnxGM6x9jY-/blog/ap_F23_20101203124427525.jpg?TTAMEyOB4VGCRDhn
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2011
  5. ClantyreSheltie

    ClantyreSheltie Forums Sage

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    In the first photo, the eye on the right looks to be blue/merled. I can't see the other picture you put up.

    That outcome (sables/sable merles) would be what I would expect from the two dogs in the photos. The dam looks pure for sable, but you can't always tell. You also can't always see the merling on sable coats. It's generally very obvious on a black coat, but not on a sable. This is why many breeders shy away from breeding that will produce sable merles.

    You are correct that the pedigree is only as good as the integrity of the person who wrote it, but that applies across the board, not just to Taiwan.
     
  6. xerospin

    xerospin Forums Enthusiast

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    I think the picture works now. I see, so mum is probably also sable merle but not very obvious?

    This is his other brother from the same litter. The breeder said he's a sable merle too, but honestly I can't tell because he doesn't have obvious patches like alfie. Maybe the mum is also like this?

    http://f23.yahoofs.com/myper/R1z5KB.XRUS.3dnxGM6x9jY-/blog/ap_F23_20110317111707438.jpg?TTAMEyOBWNMYKjd_
    http://f23.yahoofs.com/myper/R1z5KB.XRUS.3dnxGM6x9jY-/blog/ap_F23_20110317091609814.jpg?TTAMEyOBDRAriwkQ
     
  7. ClantyreSheltie

    ClantyreSheltie Forums Sage

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    Wow, that's one bruiser of a puppy!

    There isn't anything overly obvious, other than the sable is a bit washed out, but you can get that in non-merles too.
     
  8. nbrard

    nbrard Forums Enthusiast

    I was thinking the same thing, as well as how much coat it already has, but what a cutie!!
     
  9. xerospin

    xerospin Forums Enthusiast

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    I thought of the same. I mean, if puppies had coats like that surely as adults they can't turned out to be hairless? :p Although I think because we're a subtropical country, they'll never get as much coats as living in countries that snows :/ Maybe I should buy a freezer...

    alfie's pattern was much easier to tell
    https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ItDWkBvtIZg/TsaAWmdbwSI/AAAAAAAAEYU/gquIvv4PKyk/s367/ap_F23_20110223012315641.jpg

    http://f23.yahoofs.com/myper/R1z5KB.XRUS.3dnxGM6x9jY-/blog/ap_F23_20110223012315126.jpg?TTAMEyOBlUGQ1Fxu

    Can you believe nobody wanted him until he was 6months old and I happen to saw him on the breeder's blog? :/

    one of the sable brothers
    http://f23.yahoofs.com/myper/R1z5KB.XRUS.3dnxGM6x9jY-/blog/ap_F23_20110223012749869.jpg?TTAMEyOB4AAie2pK

    the other sable merle the stud dog owner had kept and the rest of us haven't heard about him after :( Rest of us send each other pictures to keep in touch which is nice :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2011
  10. Calliesmom

    Calliesmom Moderator

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    super cute pups:yes:- how old were they in these pix?
     

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