Dismiss Notice
Hello Guest, Welcome to the new version of Sheltieforums.com. If you have any questions regarding the new software, please post in the following section: Forum Upgrade

Other Options

Discussion in 'General Health' started by cookieP, Jun 24, 2014.

  1. cookieP

    cookieP Forums Regular

    86
    0
    0
    Jan 28, 2014
    Spartanburg, SC
    Today at my work, one of my clients told me that their sheltie would not be into camp for his weekly visit next week. When asking why, she stated he would be getting a vasectomy. He is a five month old sheltie and at camp, we require that all dogs be physically unable to reproduce (we usually just say spayed or neutered) by six months of age. It is corporate policy, and we are a large franchise that must adhere to it. We did accept the vasectomy as a viable alternative to neutering.

    That said, I had never heard of a dog getting a vasectomy. Talking to the client further, she said her female sheltie had received a tubal ligation instead of removal of the ovaries. This all fascinated me as I just…I had never heard of this! I asked her why she chose this route, and she told me it was because her husband was a vet and he had been studying a lot of research about adrenal diseases and he is convinced that one of the reason adrenal problems have sky rocketed in dogs is because of the fact that when a dog is spayed or neutered, the system still wants to produce the same amount of sex hormones and when the sex organs are removed the only other real hormone producing part in the dog that is left is the adrenal gland, which gets overworked and goes into overdrive to compensate for the lack/loss of hormones. This, he believes, creates a lot of problems.

    She also mentioned that her in tact but non-reproductive dogs have always been more muscular, defined, and well built than their spayed and neutered counterparts. She, as a sheltie owner, has not experienced any negative side effects such as aggression or marking indoors, etc. Apparently, a vasectomy takes ten minutes and the tubal ligation is nearly just as quick. They are both much less invasive and easier surgeries with less risk.

    Now I'm not a vet and don't claim to have all the answers. But given that shelties are not particularly high risk for testicular or ovarian cancer, and they do not tend to tear the house down when a female is in estrus, this seems like a very reasonable alternative to S&N.

    Regardless of one's opinion as to which is best or preferable, I would have liked to have heard about this option from my vet. I have not been told about this from any vet I have ever used with any of my dogs in twenty years and when I talked to my vet today while getting Cookie's heart worm medication, he simply said "spaying and neutering is just what we have always done." I wish vets presented this as an option. I understand there will be many different opinions and that is totally fine, but to never have it presented as an option to me is really unfortunate. I would have liked to have kept Cookie's hormones in tact. And I wish I would have researched the "benefits" of neutering a little better. There are not nearly as many as spaying, which has its limits, as well.

    When I was still contemplating whether or not I actually wanted to neuter Cookie at all, I was surprised with the volatility I received from some pet owners and friends (not on this forum). They acted like I was committing a crime by possibly having an intact dog. My dog is not free roaming, and is never out of my sight when he is out of the house/securely double fenced yard. The chances that he would impregnate someone's dog would have been 0.000001%. The way spay and neuter has been ingrained into our society is a little scary. There are other options, and I didn't even know about them :C

    Sorry for the long post! Just thought it was interesting. Have a great night!
     
  2. Justicemom

    Justicemom Premium Member

    6,217
    15
    175
    Oct 2, 2009
    Minnesota
    The simple fact as to why it was not presented as an option, is it is not a common procedure and I would be safe to say that not many vet know how to perform it.

    I don't know how, never seen a CE presentation on it never read an article on it. Wouldn't have the foggiest idea on how to proceed with it. I can neuter an adult dog in 5 mins and spay an adult female in 15 so I am not without skills.
     
  3. Mom2Melli

    Mom2Melli Forums Enthusiast

    2,184
    0
    85
    Oct 2, 2013
    Central California
    Now, while I agree at the validity and healthiess of intact dogs and the possibility of vascectomy/tubal . . . don't want to argue that. Not my point here.

    Certainly, with sterilized (versus desexed), certainly all of your clients can manage their own animal(s) at home, but I am just thinking if everyone in your day care/camp went with sterilized you would have, um, a non-productive doggy-raging hormone camp happening, wouldn't you? If you have females cycling and males with hormones, a whole group of them, wouldn't you tend to have more issues in such a group setting in the way of aggression and breeding behavior (though not puppy-producing)? Again, just sort of mental-picturing chaos, if you will, in a setting where dogs gather off lead such as day care. That might appear rather shocking at the doggy daycare behind the big plate glass window at Petsmart, for example.
     
  4. ClantyreSheltie

    ClantyreSheltie Forums Sage

    2,862
    0
    120
    Feb 24, 2010
    Baltimore
    Spay/Neuter (in the traditional sense) is what has been pushed on us for years and years and years. It's considered "normal" to remove a large portion of the dogs hormones at an early age. You know, like breeding is flat faced dogs that can't breath is also "normal".

    I would LOVE for vets to learn to do vasectomies and tubaligations. Even partial spays, leaving the ovaries intact (like what we do in people). We have enough evidence now that removal of hormones is detrimental to the dogs well being, so how do we catch the in-practice vets up with the new procedure?
     
  5. cookieP

    cookieP Forums Regular

    86
    0
    0
    Jan 28, 2014
    Spartanburg, SC
    Honestly the removal of the hormones does not make a difference in the behavior of the dogs here at camp. We have a ton of dogs that exhibit consistent humping. Half my job is just stopping the humping (it seems like). Both male and females do it. And I haven't found in tact dogs to be more aggressive at other places (dog parks, get togethers). Every negative experience I've ever had has been with a neutered dog. At camp, aggressive dogs are rooted out in out interview process.

    Anyway, when it comes to getting incoming vets trained on vasectomies and tubal ligations/partial spays, vet schools are going to have to start recognizing research that acknowledges the negatives of sex organ removal and hormone reduction. Eventually adrenal diseases will be so bad they will have no choice but to recognize it. We are the only country that is so hard core s&n.
     
  6. Mom2Melli

    Mom2Melli Forums Enthusiast

    2,184
    0
    85
    Oct 2, 2013
    Central California
    I must have been lucky -- all of my (desexed) dogs have not marked, humped, etc. Only my FA shepherd is any problem and that is his background rather than anything. Mine were all altered by the shelters so I had no say at all.

    Now my male cats . . . no way would I live with a whole male by choice. Eeek. The one I had didn't spray but the urine odor alone could knock you down.

    I will talk to my vet too about this procedure when I take the little tyke in and see if it is locally available as an option. I will let you know what my vet has to say about the procedure.
     
  7. Mignarda

    Mignarda Forums Enthusiast

    773
    16
    75
    Jan 17, 2013
    Dover, Delaware
    Vasectomy is by all accounts relatively easy if the person performing it knows what he's doing. But you've got to look for structures that aren't always easy to define. I don't know how they do it nowadays, but about thirty years ago when I had mine done, the doctor sent the "snippings" to a local lab for analysis, just to make sure he had cut the right thing. Between a vasectomy properly done, and one that's been botched, there's a "vast difference," if you get my drift.
     
  8. cookieP

    cookieP Forums Regular

    86
    0
    0
    Jan 28, 2014
    Spartanburg, SC
    MomtoMelli, most of the owners say that their dogs do not do it at home, which I believe. Most of the behavior only occurs in a group of 25 dogs where there is a lot of energy flowing and a lot of stuff going on. Cookie doesn't hump anything at home, but as laid back and calm and uninterested in that sort of thing as he usually is, even he can sometimes get to humping at camp. Believe it or not, some of our worst humpers are actually female :/

    I asked some of my coworkers today if they had heard of alternatives to spay/neuter (of any kind) and they had not. I asked another client who I know is a vet, and she said that she was not taught how to do any alternatives and had not even heard of it being done, although she "assumed it was possible" (of course it's possible…)

    When I asked why it was she hadn't heard of it, she told me there were no negative side effects to spaying or neutering any dog. Sigh.

    But!

    I am reading a book called Pukka's Promise: the Quest for Longer Lived Dogs by Ted Kerasote. This morning I actually got to the chapter on spaying and neutering, and he talks about these very procedures being done and essentially said the same thing my client originally told me about the procedures. His take on it and the information he provides was much more in depth and scientific, which brought a lot more to light. I highly recommend the book in general (so far), but that chapter in particular was very interesting.

    Here is an article from a vet where they interview Ted Kerasote and discuss a lot of these issues:
    http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/09/06/one-two-possible-reasons-dogs-live-longer-in-europe.aspx
     
  9. JessicaR

    JessicaR Forums Enthusiast

    1,203
    0
    85
    Sep 8, 2008
    Tiffin Ohio


    I love that book I have read it several times

    Coincidently I have a neutered male (been that way since 6months) that will hump other dogs, and an intact male that wont hump a dog to save his life! Both my females however will mount other dogs.
     
  10. Mignarda

    Mignarda Forums Enthusiast

    773
    16
    75
    Jan 17, 2013
    Dover, Delaware


    Ted Kerasote seems to be a man after my own heart. I particularly liked his comments about destroying the canine gene pool by mass spaying and neutering, without regard for the overall genetic health of the species.
     

Share This Page