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Sop what do you guys think of E collars?

Discussion in 'Sheltie Training' started by mike farwell, Oct 4, 2016.

  1. SheepOfBlue

    SheepOfBlue Premium Member

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    Me and the guys are barbarians, none of us are trained :)

    That said I am not a fan of them but have seen them used on large dogs with some effect. However I have also seen large dogs that were extremely well trained without them.
     
  2. Kelly

    Kelly Administrator

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    Sorry Mike. If you are looking for validation in using an e-collar or prong collar with your Sheltie, you wont get it from this group. 99.99% of us do not, nor need to use either of them. The consensus of experiences among Sheltie owners is that this breed is far too sensitive for this training method to have a positive, long term outcome. We have repeatedly seen this breed end up in rescue or worse due to heavily handed training. If you do a search within the forums on this subject, you will see previous discussions about why we do not recommend it.

    You asked for feedback and did not get the response you were seeking. Do with the information as you will. However, we hope you may come to have an open mind as to why we are disagreeing with your point of view. I do not want to see this turn into an argument.
     
  3. Bailey's Mom

    Bailey's Mom Forums Enthusiast

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    Sadly, I have seen e-collars used and for the most part they've been used by people like yourself who want a short cut in training and don't want to put the work into training because it takes time and patience to train a dog with positive training techniques. There are people with dogs far better trained then mine who can do all kinds of amazing things who have never had any training but rewards based training. I have the benefit of meeting them and watching them work with their dogs. It inspired me to look more into it when I was struggling with my now 8 year old who proved to be more challenging to train than the previous rescue Sheltie we got as a puppy. Perhaps instead of lecturing us about not knowing about the proper use of abusive training you should research more about positive training. Giving one treat isn't going to make the dog do what you want. Be realistic if your boss paid you once would you continue to come back to work every week just because he rewarded you once with a check?

    Quite honestly I think you came here to troll more than have a discussion on training, but I will say you look like you want short cuts to training and if you want a mentally healthy and strong Sheltie short cuts aren't going to produce what you want. However, if in fact you are just here to troll have at it.

    When we took our first dog to training we were taught to treat heavily in the beginning and start to work back to praise after you achieve consistency with that behavior. You seem to have a real attitude about giving treats to your dog as a reward. You seem much happier punishing her instead. I can only hope you are a troll.

    As for stubborn again words are relative. I have an 8 year old that came out of rescue after a less than ideal home situation when she was 2. She can be stubborn, but after reading lots of training posts here, I learned lots more about training then I needed to know with my first one, who came to us out of rescue as a puppy with just puppy challenges. She overcame all the issues you listed with positive treat based training, no shock collars and no prongs required. It does take TIME and PATIENCE. However, she's never run out in the street after a child, animal, or car, or other moving vehicle while off leash. We call this training. Yes, we treated heavily in the beginning. Now she responds to hand and verbal signals, which both come in handy.

    We are having even more success with the 2 year old we adopted from a breeder this summer using positive training techniques because she has even less baggage than our 8 year old did. Sure it is work and it doesn't mean you can leave the dog off leash unsupervised on day one. However, she is a much happier dog than one who is terrified not to obey. I can't imagine using a prong collar to teach her to walk on a leash. There are so many better ways.

    I suspect you'd remember if someone trained you with pain as well. It doesn't mean you are going to be mentally healthy after the fact either. As I said I can only hope you are a troll
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2016
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  4. mimiretz

    mimiretz Forums Enthusiast

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    I'm with everyone else on abusive (and yes, both collars you're talking about are abusive, regardless of what you or some retired air force guy says) training. If every time a baby cries someone either pokes him with a sharp piece of metal or gives him an electric shock, that baby will learn not to cry, and probably within a fairly short period of time. That doesn't mean that the methods used are the right way to teach the baby not to cry, even if it takes less time than other ways of teaching the child not to cry by, say, responding to the baby's needs so the baby learns the world is a dependable, loving place. What you've taught your Sheltie is that she has to behave out of fear, not out of her natural desire to make you happy or because sitting, staying, etc are a good thing to do.

    BTW, I taught Oberon to sit before eating in about 5 minutes, simply by not giving him his food until he sat. It took less than a day for him to sit as soon as he saw his food bowl. He was 8 weeks at the time. Never had to use any abusive methods, just held his food bowl, said sit, and as soon as he did I put the bowl on the floor.
     
  5. tesslynn

    tesslynn Forums Enthusiast

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    It is negative training, it might get results but what are the psychological ramifications? Puppies are blank slates, trying to learn about their world, and when they are subject to adverse methods that scars them. It might not show, but I can definitely say from all my psychology training it isn't doing the creature ANY good in the long run.
     
  6. mike farwell

    mike farwell Forums Novice

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    Ok after that post I really dont know what to say, I am not trolling to ruffle up someones feelings, as I stated in every comment that I made "for me it has worked" no I'm not saying this is the only way to train a dog Ive just stated how it has worked with my Sheltie. That said , I do love my dog and only want the best for her. I posted this asking others if they had worked with ecollars before with their shelties and I'm getting opinions from everybody telling me why they shouldnt use the ecollar, All I was asking is to talk to people that HAVE used ecollars. I am not trying to start a argument saying this is better or not, no I'm not going there, I had talked to my vet about this and he gave me no reason not to use a ecollar.. I'm sorry If I ruffled a few feathers cause I didnt mean to,,, thanks
     
  7. Hanne

    Hanne Forums Sage

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    (First so sorry for my bad english)

    If you believe that such methods help, you take really fault, you end up with a total insecure dog - and a small sencetive race as a Sheltie - that need so much security and trust to its owner, how should it get it for a who mistreat it ??

    We have taken a small innocent subject into our world who would rather grow up and herding as it is created for.

    Therefore, it is our greatest task of learning it to move in our world, but definitely using only good positive learning and it is a long process.
    (people can also suppress a child so much that it never does anything wrong, not because it knows why but of dread)

    A Sheltie is first adult about 3 years, and then we first can expect some confidence in what it has learned, if you in other words have learned the dog it in a positive way.

    In 2009 this law was introduced here in Denmark.
    § 1. The use of any remote or automatic unit that was attached to their animals, which causes the animal an electric shock or other significant disadvantage when activated, is strictly prohibited.
     
  8. SheepOfBlue

    SheepOfBlue Premium Member

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    I doubt anyone is mad (well some but that is always the case LOL) but there are few or zero here that use e-collars so feedback on THAT is unlikely to be of use to you. However that does not mean that other information is not up and available. For instance if you plan any competition type activities there are a lot of people her that actively post (some with a ton of experience/success) that you might find useful. Also any health issues (hopefully you never need those). Or grooming etc.

    Oh and welcome do you have pictures of your Sheltie :)
     
    Kelly likes this.
  9. tesslynn

    tesslynn Forums Enthusiast

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    Wow, Hanne, the more you post of the laws and guidelines in Denmark, the more impressed with your country I become. I wish we could be as enlightened here. So much of the USA has deteriorated in their thinking and processes. You certainly have a WAY more humane approach to your pets than we do. I wholeheartedly AGREE with your post (y) Lots of method might obtain the desired results, but are they humane methods? That is true for children as well.
     
    Hanne likes this.
  10. Bailey's Mom

    Bailey's Mom Forums Enthusiast

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    You join a site that promotes positive training and then are surprised that you can't find anyone that supports abusive training methods? Really? Again why I can only hope you are here to troll and not serious about this being how you train your dog. Perhaps finding a site that promotes your training methods would help you find someone who would validate your choice. I guess I'm confused. If you are happy with the outcome, why are you so anxious to promote it to people who are clearly not interested. Honestly, I can't imagine going to a site that promotes abusive training methods and preaching about positive training methods. It's just a troll kind of thing to do. People aren't going to validate my choices or change their minds because a stranger comes to their site and tells them they've found the light.

    However, getting back to your original points, you keep promoting this training based on the claims that you can't control your dog without hurting her. That is just not true. Many of us have given examples of how positive training accomplishes the same skills while promoting a bond between you and your dog. Our methods lead to the dog wanting to do what you ask because your dog wants to please you. Yours appears to work because the dog is afraid you are going to hurt it. I'm not sure what your purpose is for having a dog, but I can't imagine wanting my dogs to fear me. You keep saying you want what's best for her. How is fearing you best for her? I made a choice to have dogs. I like the companionship. I don't need anyone to fear me. The one thing we can agree on is we need our dogs to behave and be under control, we disagree about how that control can be accomplished and what is "best" for the dog.

    First regarding your fear your dog won't be able to hear you for recall, I can't speak for your area, but in my area we have leash laws that require our dogs to be under owner control if off leash. Therefore my dogs shouldn't be far enough away from me that I can't reach them by verbal or non-verbal commands. It's required by law that I provide supervision if they are off leash. In order to avoid annoying my neighbors yelling multiple dog names, mine respond to a simple voice whistle for recall as well as their names for come. Therefore, your claim that you have to shock your dog because there might be a time your dog is out of voice range is ridiculous. Your dog should never be out of voice range in an unsafe situation. That is your responsibility as an owner. If properly trained in a positive manner, your dog isn't going to be taking off as long as you are supervising.

    As for your fears that your dog will only respond to treats forever, again that is not true. Yes, Shelties are smart, but they also are pleasers. They will not expect a treat forever, but you do need to treat and praise heavily in the beginning until the skill is a habit. Once the skill becomes a habit, you reduce the treats to praise and eventually you don't even always have to praise the skill. I had a 13 year old that was able to work off leash consistently and required nothing more than praise to thank him for his good work. It didn't happen on the first day when we got him when he was a puppy from rescue, it took training. However, it was worth the effort to have a dog that trusted us and worked with us for 13 years. He behaved because he wanted to please us not because he feared he'd be hurt if he failed to obey. Shelties do best when they keep learning, but I don't keep treating for the skills they learned as puppies. There are plenty of skills I just expect to be done and don't even think to praise anymore.

    As for taking off after animals. My dogs will chase animals in our fenced yard, however they don't pursue animals outside of their yard. They've learned where it's OK to chase and where they can't. Imagine that without ever being hurt. Also Shelties are creatures of habit. For instance after storm damage we had to have panels in our fence replaced. It was an all day job and one of our dogs has an issue pottying on leash, so when the workers were on break we went out back with them to let them go. I was concerned they might want to explore the breach in the fence. Instead they wouldn't go near it. They were upset that the yard had changed and they wanted nothing to do with it. They did their business and headed back to the house without us ever needing to use a recall. However, as you might notice we were supervising prepared to make sure they didn't get through the breach using recall if necessary. We didn't leave them alone expecting them to be OK alone. While you may assume the dog is a danger to the kid on the bike, you also have to supervise to make sure the children aren't a danger to the dog. Shelties tend to be a draw and not all kids are good with dogs.
     
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