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AKC vs KC Standard

Discussion in 'The Sheltie Standard' started by k9kreationz, Jun 2, 2016.

  1. k9kreationz

    k9kreationz Premium Member

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    I just saw this today as I'm sure many of you have. I thought it was interesting.

    Dog World: Time to split Sheltie breed, council says

    The KC wants to split the breed by making an "American Shetland Sheepdog" category. I'm wondering how the breeding/showing folks feel about it.

    IMHO, they have different standards, so I would think an American Sheltie may not win because they're not up to their "standards" while showing in their country. Me personally, I'd be okay with it because they do look very different and one shouldn't outweigh the other, should it?

    I did find this interesting; does anyone know if it's true?

    "They say also that the US type has hereditary diseases, the occurrence of which is very rare in those bred to the UK Standard, such as von Willebrand’s disease and familial dermatomyositis."
     
  2. corbinam

    corbinam Moderator

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    I found that interesting when I read about it the other day. I had a similar line of thought--what happens to American-looking shelties if they were to show in the UK? Or vice versa? Are they ignored? Never put up? Does it depend on the judge? Or do they not even bother entering?
     
  3. Cubby2014

    Cubby2014 Forums Enthusiast

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    It's getting pretty heated in the sheltie FB groups . . . Actually, this turns into a mess. The dog should be judged on the standard of the kennel club/registry it is showing in. So, if the American types don't meet the standard as written they are penalized and won't win. If European type doesn't match standards here, they are penalized. However, you then get into international judges and the waters can get really muddy. What about breeding? If you subdivide populations you get more genetic problems due to inbreeding. Are they saying this MORE because someone is beating them? Or is it a way to justify keeping some things they have never seen out of the lines? There are a lot of breeds with differences in European and American lines. How are they handling it?
     
  4. Cubby2014

    Cubby2014 Forums Enthusiast

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    Oh, and it seems SO odd to me that the established breeders are petitioning to kick out the upstarts. Normally, the non-standard group is the one doing the petitioning. "We like the breed this way, we can't win, we want own class". This feels backwards . . . "they are corrupting us (and we don't like them winning) kick them out".
     
  5. Caro

    Caro Moderator

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    I can't believe it. Honestly, can't a breed have some variations without trying to limit the gene pool. Didn't anyone take heed of the BBC documentary on how limiting the gene pool and strict adherence to breed standards results in poor examples of the breed, and dogs with a lot of health issues.

    Seems to also ignore that there is a whole other world out there outside the US and UK. This will effectively marginalise any American bred Shelties - almost all the rest of the world will follow the UK standard (lets face it, the Shetland Islands are in the UK). It will limit the gene pool in Australia - where US lines are often brought in to strengthen the breed.

    Are they really also saying UK shelties are healthier than US shelties - hmm, seems American Shelties have a longer life span.

    Is this an example of breeders trying to ruin the breed? Just because they're snotty about some judges that didn't like their dogs?

    What is a sheltie? It isn't something that has a marginally different head in one country, a marginally different coat in another. If you stood a US and a UK sheltie next to each other and asked if they are Shelties, then of course you would say yes. Both my dogs were bred to UK standards, and yet Deska could pass as an American line, Tully looks like a 'toy'. There is diversity in our breed and we should celebrate it. They don't have flat faces that can't breathe, skin folds that get infected, heads that squeeze their brains or sloped rear ends that can hardly walk. But this is what results from strict adherence to standards with no allowance for natural variation.
     
  6. Ann

    Ann Moderator

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    In fact, there are marked differences between US Shelties and UK Shelties...all you have to do is look at photos of the two side by side. The British variety is finer boned, with a narrower, more pointed muzzle. Do they still look like Shelties? Yes. It really becomes a matter or preference, and whether you believe the argument that the US lines carry more genetic problems.

    There's a huge interest overseas in importing US Shelties, and numerous overseas breeders can be found at our National looking for dogs to buy. Unless we see a flood of European judges in our rings, I don't see that judging to our standard will be a problem here. The hue and cry seems to come from England, more than our side of the pond.
     
  7. k9kreationz

    k9kreationz Premium Member

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    I admit, the article did make it seem like the KC was crying foul because an American Sheltie won. I'm curious what it looked like. I did read one comment about how we should keep the breed as it was meant to be (meaning it should look like the UK version). But even that, I wonder, how true is that? The breed is so young, comparably, it's not like they have a set look.

    I'm with everyone who said, at least they don't have super sloped backs, physical issues due to the way we want them to look, etc. Overall, they're still a healthy breed.

    I'm curious as to why the judge did judge it against American standards at a UK show. Unless it was American, but really had the UK standard. Darn, I'm going to have to find a photo.

    Great conversation. I know we can keep it sane here. I saw some of the comments on FB and was like, yeah, this is getting bad, but I know it won't get like this at SN. :)
     
  8. Jess041

    Jess041 Forums Enthusiast

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    This was the Sheltie that added fuel to an already existing fire. I think she's absolutely beautiful, btw. https://www.pedigreelines.com/dog/show/name/hillstone-hallelujah
    Here's one of the many articles about what happened. It was a Finnish judge, judging in the UK at a KC show. So I kinda agree he should have been judging to the standard of the venue he was judging in. Article
    Also, I think the differences between the UK type and American type is very easy to see. Although I have a friend that couldn't tell the difference when I pointed out the UK Shelties in a calendar.
     
  9. Ann

    Ann Moderator

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    Oh how interesting....it's a Macdega-bred bitch too....very much American! A lovely dog for sure. Thanks for the photo, Jess.

    I do agree that when judging in England, you would think that they'd use the British standard. That's what we'd expect here. Although the Shelties you find in England have such a different look than ours it's hard to believe they'd be put up by judges here, but one never knows. Judging can always be a surprise.... :wideyed:
     
  10. tesslynn

    tesslynn Forums Enthusiast

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    Hallie is good looking!!!! I don't really know anything about showing or all that jazz. I just wish people would stop thinking my lil wonders are collies, ha..
     

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