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DCM - A take from a vet nutrionist

Discussion in 'Commercial Food' started by k9kreationz, Jul 6, 2019.

  1. Sharon7

    Sharon7 Premium Member

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    Arrrrrgh. I really vacillated about changing from Wellness Lamb and Barley, which is NOT grain-free, but does have peas listed as number 7 on their list of ingredients. My dogs have done very well on that food for years, and NO recalls. Their Salmon recipe had peas as #3 and WAS implicated in DCM in a study (again - I threw away the papers my vet gave me, so don't remember whose study, but think it was WSAVA). But in the end I chose to switch to Purina Proplan, after finding a very similar recipe. The nugget of uncertainty was bothering me, so I switched as a precaution.

    I hope this can be studied more definitively so that the smaller companies do not go out of business. But I do see the importance of having an actual veterinary nutritionist be in charge of formulating the food instead of a layman.

    This is really an upsetting issue on many levels. Thank you Dr. Mac for weighing in. The more info the better and I appreciate your taking the time to help us with this dilemma.
     
    Hanne, k9kreationz and KarenCurtis like this.
  2. The Quahog

    The Quahog Forums Enthusiast

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    Thanks. i am sticking my neck out here- as I could be totally embarrassed as someone posts a definitive report from Davis, or the FDA, or WSAVA of the data and why they are all making the presumptions and recommendations they are making. But that would be fine with me. Being called out for my ignorance would be a small price to pay for getting some actual answers.
     
    Hanne, RikyR, Calliesmom and 5 others like this.
  3. Sandy in CT

    Sandy in CT Premium Member

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    Amen!!!!!
     
    Hanne and Ann like this.
  4. Ann

    Ann Moderator

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    I just have to give props to everyone who has posted here. This is the most productive, informative discussion I have seen on this topic anywhere, and I've seen a lot of them (Facebook overload!). Thanks to all of you who have weighed in here reasonably, with open minds, without being snarky or know-it-all, and special thanks to Dr. Mac for taking the time to share his insights and knowledge with all of us.

    Bravo, Forum members! (y)
     
    Hanne, RikyR, Calliesmom and 4 others like this.
  5. k9kreationz

    k9kreationz Premium Member

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    I wanted to comment a bit, in case others have been to that FB group or referred to their website.
    According to them, none of the 4 companies have been cited in any of the NM-DCM cases and therefore, along with following the WSAVA guidelines, means they're safe and don't cause NM-DCM. I don't exactly agree, but I am willing to eat crow if it's proven true. To them, it's based on the fact that the Big 4 do all their scientific research and have a slew of scientists on their payroll, own their manufacturing facilities so they can constantly run toxicology reports and catch everything before it goes to the public (if only that were the case), and that they do food studies. I think there's more, but those are the main reasons they repeat as to why they trust the WSAVA and the Big 4. Oh, and because one of them does a lot of peer-reviewed studies, they're a trustworthy food. No offense to you or any vet, but I feel like the vets on that board didn't really understand what "science" is and how to really dissect "studies". I had to do it in my psycho-bio class, pick apart studies, figure out what made it good or bad. A study of 10 dogs is great, but it's really not enough to say, "this is evidence-based". :(

    As your last sentence said.....I can't just blindly jump on that bandwagon. That's the biggest reason I decided to rotate brands, including some of the Big 4. I'm being cautious especially for my big 2.
     
    RikyR, Sandy in CT and Calliesmom like this.
  6. k9kreationz

    k9kreationz Premium Member

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    I agree! For the most part, we rarely get out of hand and that's why I love this board. We can discuss pros/cons, fears/facts, and still be supportive. I was bashed hard for even agreeing with the article I posted, mainly because I was going against the "foremost authority and who am I to question him", then got my comment deleted for saying, "he's a scientist, not a god; And as a scientist, he should be ready for everyone, including his peers, to question him". I figured this group would DISCUSS the article and we are. I love hearing from everyone and I love hearing mainly that we don't know enough yet, but we're all trying to be cautious and following what we feel is best for our dogs. :) I <3 Sheltie Forums.
     
    HikerDog, Hanne, RikyR and 4 others like this.
  7. Hanne

    Hanne Premium Member

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    So agree :yes:
     
    Calliesmom and KarenCurtis like this.
  8. The Quahog

    The Quahog Forums Enthusiast

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    Thanks all for the kind words. Yes, as always this board has been a good place for discussion, as well as just a good place. It's always been fun. So many breed boards are all about dominance and cliquishness - it's almost as if we have Shelties staring at us with their judgmental beady little eyes saying 'Ahem.... there are RULES!!'
    Kudos to the moderators, and the gang in general.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019
    Hanne, Sharon7, Wendy C and 3 others like this.
  9. The Quahog

    The Quahog Forums Enthusiast

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    Well here is an update.
    Recap - based on studies, the FDA reported an alert that listed several 'high end' foods (BEG - boutique, Exotic, Grain Free ) as potentially dangerous . This then was somehow associated in internet parlance with a short list of 'safe' foods recommended by WSAVA, as discussed earlier on this thread, though that list had nothing directly to do with the FDA alert on BEG foods. The result, thanks to 'internet Science' is that foods made by the smaller manufacturers are dangerous, best to switch to Purina or Hill's, as several here have stated they intended to do, based on the WSAVA report.No one ever actually said this, but of course this is the result, just as Sandy described.

    So today I get the latest edition of 'Clinician's Brief' , a peer reviewed journal of continuing education for veterinarians, including such topics as treating burns and removing salivary glands. It is published by WSAVA. The inside front cover and first page, even before the index, is a two page spread advertisement for Hill's foods. Starting on page 45 there is an advertisement for how to get direct home delivery of Purina foods, followed by a 4 page tear out insert article on the benefits of using a Purina food to treat feline renal disease, with the Purina logo on each page and ending with a full page ad for the food they just discussed.
    As far as I can see no other foods are advertised in this journal. The two key sponsors supporting the WSAVA journal appear to be Hill's and Purina.
    Consider these links
    https://www.wsava.org/About/Industry-Partners/Purina-Institute
    https://www.wsava.org/About/Industry-Partners/Hill-s-Pet-Nutrition

    Obviously no one is hiding anything or trying to be deceptive here- WSAVA approves of these companies so supports them. I am not accusing anyone of having secret deceptive arrangements. But I wonder if the average dog owner choosing a food is aware of these relationships.
     
    pomshe, Ann, Hanne and 2 others like this.
  10. Sandy in CT

    Sandy in CT Premium Member

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    Thank you for your updated post. This, what you described, just concerns me so much. Obviously these 'official' reports are being supported financially by companies that are being pushed. Just smacks of crap.... sorry. Go on a Doberman forum, a Golden forum, any dog food forum and bam! these foods are being quoted as 'approved by WSAVA' - even posts here have said the same - yet the WSAVA is supported financially by the manufacturers of these foods. Seems to me, skeptic that I am, to be a consented effort to put the smaller guys out of business. These food manufacturers, btw, have a HORRID history with dog foods - I don't care how many staff they have on hand - their carelessness has killed so many dogs which is why folks started looking to other companies - for the health of their dogs. Convenient, isn't it, that this big organization has now found something that can negatively effect these smaller food companies and push the big guys that back them with funding....
     
    RikyR, Ann, Hanne and 1 other person like this.

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