Dismiss Notice
Hello Guest, Welcome to the new version of Sheltieforums.com. If you have any questions regarding the new software, please post in the following section: Forum Upgrade

My 'mini-Border-Collie'....

Discussion in 'Sheltie Colors' started by blaiseshimmer, Feb 29, 2016.

  1. blaiseshimmer

    blaiseshimmer Forums Regular

    53
    0
    40
    Apr 16, 2015
    south TX
    ...because Shelties aren't supposed to look like THIS (according to one of the ladies at Puppy Playtime (aka: Mayhem). I took Kelby out this weekend to a local playtime for puppies hosted by one of the local bigbox pet stores. Now this woman has teacup-somethings (I have no idea what they were other than very tiny with large heads, but were too fluffy to be teacup Chihuahuas).

    He's a blue merle, cryptic...(and sorry for the lousy lighting; we're in the middle of updating some floors in our house and piled all the furniture in our living room (which will get a new chandelier when this is all done.).)

    https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6dc08b3127cceeb2e6ada7fc400000040O00IZtmTlm5buQe3nwg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00907939026320160229212848808.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/<this is after an hour of wrestling with our Shiloh who leaves him coated in drool and helpfully removed the ear stuff...

    https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6dc08b3127cceeb2ebf823f6e00000040O00IZtmTlm5buQe3nwg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00907939026320160229213159591.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/He's just turned 14 weeks...

    I can kind of understand where she was coming from, as from what I have gathered, cryptic blues look a lot like tricolor (his sire is a tri), and at first glance, he doesn't.

    His merling is along his front left leg, a largish patch on the back of his ruff, his left ear, alongside his blaze...
    https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6dc08b3127cceeb2e1c5afe4f00000030O00IZtmTlm5buQe3nwg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00907939026320160229213336529.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
     
  2. trini

    trini Premium Member

    2,181
    240
    115
    Nov 13, 2013
    upstate ny
    He is going to have a really thick beautiful coat...very handsome pup!

    BTW if this "teacup" lady calls her dog a teacup anything, she is as clueless on that score as she is on calling your sheltie boy a BC. There is no such thing as a teacup in any breed and no reputable breeder would list any of their pups as teacups...or breed to intentionally produce pups that are smaller than the breed standard. It is a selling technique to ask more money for a pup who is smaller than the standard and unfortunately many buyers fall for it and pay way more for these tiny pups.

    Trini
     
    Cara Sandler likes this.
  3. Calliesmom

    Calliesmom Moderator

    10,671
    1,164
    335
    Mar 29, 2008
    near Mobile, AL
    very pretty- he has way too much merling to be called cryptic- and chihuahuas do come in a long hair variety................
     
  4. blaiseshimmer

    blaiseshimmer Forums Regular

    53
    0
    40
    Apr 16, 2015
    south TX
    I'm the one who thought he might be cryptic since in my eyes, he just doesn't look like what a blue merle should traditionally be<newbie here. I know that most cryptics look like a tricolor (which he really doesn't) or a bi-black (but he has tan markings). Our only other sheltie, Lir, was the traditional blue merle, and this guy looks so different (that was the main reason we picked him. Our hearts were still too broken to see another 'real' blue merle sitting in front of the fireplace.

    I think he's a pip. He's so full of life, bounces around on his hind legs like Tigger...right now he's relegated to his puppy playpen since I had to reglue and retape his ears after his hourly wrestling match with his 'brother' who outweighs him by at least 70 pounds. And even though he got a bath yesterday, he's already got...stuff...ground into his coat. And the ears...oy...I'll have to start buying moleskin by the box at this rate.

    As for the mini/teacup stuff, I used to get approached by people at the petstore who would actually offer their male BCs (because oddly there are a lot of them around, though no sheep to herd...:rolleyes2:), because Lir was a very pretty sheltie with clear coloring, and undersized (he was about 12 inches). When I would point out that my dog was a BOY already lacking his equipment, well...and I live in south TX...everything here has some Chiwi in it...it's just that these particular little...honestly, I've seen pretty much every combination here, so these might be the latest chipomweeniepug...whatever they were, they were annoying. And they snorted. Very odd.

    I get that people can be unaware of the range of sheltie sizes. There is a pair of sheltie littermates who follow my Shiloh after his puppy class, and they are both -to me - oversized, almost reaching my knees. I can see where people thought that Lir was a teacup...and now my little pile of chaos.

    I do have a grooming question (I hope I can ask this here); at what stage do I even attempt trimming those adorable whiskers? I was thinking long and hard about entering him in the Beginner Puppy portion of an All-Breed AKC show to be held in May just a week before he reaches 6 months, and along with hoping he doesn't grow too tall, I'd love to have him acclimated to the show grooming schedule.
     
  5. Daisy1015

    Daisy1015 Forums Enthusiast

    254
    21
    60
    May 2, 2014
    Oh people don't usually know sheltie/ rough. COllie nowadays. Not even lassie if under 30. I have a 6 month old small sable. I have been asked if he is a husky or greyhound or border collie or german shepherd or designer mutt! Even when in his sleek stage it is comical. http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h5/Daisy1015/Mobile%20Uploads/image_2.jpeg

    As for whiskers, you cN start anytime. Sooner to a climate him better than later i would think.

    You have an adorable dog aNd the unique coloring will confuse non sheltie people
     
  6. Justicemom

    Justicemom Forums Celebrity

    6,225
    29
    175
    Oct 2, 2009
    Minnesota
    Actually anything over 50% black is technically cryptic.
     
  7. Calliesmom

    Calliesmom Moderator

    10,671
    1,164
    335
    Mar 29, 2008
    near Mobile, AL
    where is that written?
    it's not in the breed standard- only anything over 50% white should be penalized.......
     
  8. Jess041

    Jess041 Forums Enthusiast

    1,567
    46
    105
    Feb 2, 2012
    Houston, Texas
    Not to derail the thread, but I thought Cryptic was when the only way you could knew it was a merle and not a bi-black/tri was a small merled or patch somewhere. Like, it's just not obvious that it's a merle. IDK. The merling on his face and then the strip across his back makes him seem less "cryptic" to me. However, I'm not a Sheltie exhibitor, judge, expert, etc.

    Now back on track... Missy get's mistaken for a border collie all the time. All you can really say when they argue is, "I have the pedigree that shows without a doubt he's a Sheltie, would you like to talk to the breeder?"
     
  9. Justicemom

    Justicemom Forums Celebrity

    6,225
    29
    175
    Oct 2, 2009
    Minnesota
    http://everythingsheltie.com/theoriesofcolor.html

    More opinion then anything I guess. But a lot of people feel this way. It is not penalized in the show ring per say unless you get a judge that considers it self coloring. Some just do not like it. I know a lot of merles over 50% black and even a few truly cryptic blues that are CHs. It just really factors in when breeding.

    This quote from the link above:
    At the lowest end of the pattern pole are the "Cryptic" patterns. This is where the dog is predominately black -- note: the old time breeders considered predominant quite literally, that any dog over 50% black was more a black dog than a blue dog, and this was a form of self-color. The ideal desired blue pattern was well broken up black spots on a blue background, not solid areas of black predominating as it does with the Cryptic pattern. This was not considered a true blue merle pattern to them so they would pet them out when pups of this pattern or dilute specimens appeared in litters. That is why they were virtually unseen before the last 20 years.

    When they appeared, they were just culled. As I understand it, this is still the practice with most Canadian AOAC breeders, and I must commend them for this practice as it helps retain the genetic diversity of modifiers so needed in the breed. Cryptic is a color fault, just like a pale sable or rusty tri or dilute blue. It is minor in the whole picture of the standard, but still needs to be taken into account as a fault, and is not the ideal desired. You can see in the standard the two parts of self color described by the older breeders, along with the dilute description, before we had the cryptic and anopthic distinctions:

    "Faults´┐Ż..Washed out or degenerate colors such as pale sable and faded blue [Dilutes]. Self-color in the case of blue merle, that is, without any merling or mottling [Cryptic] and [ed. note, perhaps should have been more correctly "or"] generally appearing as a faded or dilute tricolor" [Anopthe]. The two self-color type distinctions meant within the standard were what was taught to me by Betty Whelen and Libby Babin as I did not fully understand that passage before their clarification to me, and it makes sense in light of what we actually see and now know to be genetically accurate. This, of course, is only my own evaluation of the passage. It, and the entire standard, is always open to individual interpretation and much discussion. This, to my mind, is the crucible of refinement, and in the end, what eventually changes any standard.
     
  10. blaiseshimmer

    blaiseshimmer Forums Regular

    53
    0
    40
    Apr 16, 2015
    south TX
    Should I REALLY be worried?

    I read through the article, pretty much line by line and am still somewhat confused. The white 'line' or belt going up his belly on his left side is blue/silver (merle), left ear is merled, a patch on his ruff and down one leg is merled, what I first thought was a Harry Potter lightning bolt blaze is actually a thin white blaze surrounded by merling...
    (https://www.shutterfly.com/lightbox/view.sfly?fid=4a2b0411ae5385786d9889752d9a603c#1457038923118)

    From what I had read, most, if not all cryptics are just that - they look like a black/white or tri and you pretty much have to comb through the coat to find some merling. Kelby's coloring pattern, though, matches more of his mother, who is a blue merle with white (bi-blue) - she has really dark patches on her body (her breeder mentioned her as a harlequin bi blue)

    Looking at the parents' peds, there is a lot of either bi-blacks, bi-blues and blue merles (no double merles from reading the pairings).

    This is a basic write-up :

    Sire: tricolor (really dark); his sire is a bi-black and his dam is blue merle white and tan

    Dam: blue merle and white (bi-blue); her sire is also a bi-blue and her dam is black and white

    No way am I an expert of the color genetics of this breed, but I see a lot of black and white, and merles galore in his background. To me this means I have a uniquely colored puppy who I love unconditionally, but I'm beginning to wonder if I should even consider taking him into a conformation show if he will be penalized because of his coat.

    I need to take better pictures of him. The ones I have done kind of make him look like he's stuck in a dark basement with just one bare lightbulb for lighting so he looks really smudgy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2016

Share This Page