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Training to stand on the table

Discussion in 'Handling Techniques' started by Kamikazi, Dec 13, 2009.

  1. BarbV

    BarbV Forums Celebrity

    Um! I'm not a moderator, and neither am I a shower, so I have no opinion one way or the other....I'm just a lay-person reading this thread.

    All I can say is: Everyone take a deep breath! Difference of opinion is totally ok. That's what keeps this forum healthy and growing.

    We welcome all viewpoints here. And yes, discussions are encouraged to make sure we get everyone's input. But it starts getting personal, then it shuts down the discussion and shuts down the information to the detriment of everybody.

    My tuppence worth.
     
  2. Narmowen

    Narmowen Forums Enthusiast

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    Noted, Barb! And stepping out! :biggrin2:
     
  3. Narmowen

    Narmowen Forums Enthusiast

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    I just had to pop back in to post these pictures of people kneeling with their conformation Shelties. Yes, they're show pictures. But I've seen them in the ring, under the judge, kneeling. Like these.

    Seems like they all have nice long necks and good expression. :wink2:

    http://media.photobucket.com/image/champion shetland sheepdog/deyaint/1a-1.jpg

    http://www.deya-online.com/news-archive/id9.html (two pictures on the bottom of this page of a PROF handler kneeling with a Sheltie).

    Best in Show picture: http://www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/2007/July2007/News060707/images/windsor-bis.jpg

    http://www.shelmannashelties.com/washDogChallenge.jpg

    http://www.caviarshelties.com/store/dog_photos/primary_photos/dog20_photo.jpg

    Two kneeling pictures on this page: http://www.angelsshelties.com/Dogs.html

    Many kneeling pictures: http://nevadasheltieclub.com/events.html

    Look at the neck on this guy: http://iconshelties.homestead.com/newjove.html
     
  4. tofu pup

    tofu pup Moderator

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    Narmowen, thank you for all of the pictures. We'll continue to show our dogs the way we do, and I think I can speak for missjenneygirl as well as myself when I say that we encourage everyone involved in conformation to train and present their Shelties in the way they think is best.

    There are many regional and international differences in the way Shelties are shown, and different techniques may show certain dogs to their best advantage (and be more comfortable and natural-feeling for their handlers). You've proved your point: vive la difference!

    I'll continue in a second post; now that Kamikazi has replied, it would be great to get this thread back on-topic.
     
  5. tofu pup

    tofu pup Moderator

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    OK, part II:

    Hi again Kamikazi! I'm glad to hear that your pup's problem is one of over-exuberance, and not of shyness. You're right, the wiggling, leaping, squirming act should be toned down before he makes his show-ring debut.

    Having a good hold on his collar can go a long way to keeping control over the total dog. I outlined my own technique earlier in the thread; sometimes just holding the head, giving them a little nudge, and keeping a calm, confident attitude yourself can help calm a super-happy puppy enough for an effective examination by the judge.

    Practice and repetition will also help. Show him that getting on the table and standing there, calmly, is just part of daily life by making it part of your routine. For example: every evening, after he's had dinner and gone outside and is feeling sort of sleepy from a long day, you put him up on the table and hold his head. Praise him (calmly, softly, so as not to set off the wiggles) when he stands still, even if it's only a nanosecond at first. He'll start to get the idea that table-time is no big deal, and certainly not worth the crazy wiggling.

    Again, he's just a super-happy puppy, which is fantastic! He will learn to stand still on the table, he just needs to learn a little self-control in that specific situation.
     
  6. missjenneygirl

    missjenneygirl Forums Enthusiast

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    Well.............................these are show photos. It isn't attractive to lean over the dog to hold the collar for a photo. It is hard to complain that the handler's are always put up. The work they do all week, because it is their job, we do as a hobby. There is a different mind-set, when you make a living doing something, instead of dabbling at it. Only doing dog shows when you feel like it. Their livelihood depends on how well they get the dog into the ring. Maybe work for them one weekend, and you will learn a whole lot of tips that will help you compete against them. Like Mary and Walt Christenson.

    Here in New England we also have many prof. handlers, Steve Barger and Paul Capobianco, Sheila and Sissy Monks, Rose Chandless, Pete Denbow, Jennie Hynes, and then the sheltie breeder judges, Sandy McIntosh-Feret, Barbara Keneally, Kim Shive, Tom and Nioma Coen. We need their numbers to make majors. Sometimes they have the best dog, and sometimes we do. Never do we feel that only they can win. There's room for everybody. If you are beating them under breeder judges, and at specialties, then your program is on the right track. You can use that as a benchmark. The breeder judges find the best dogs. Those are the wins that are important to us. Again, just my opinion, but I think the all-rounder judges do tend to put up the professional handlers. If they are not confident in the nuances of the sheltie breed, it is easier to point to a handler, a face they recognize from every show weekend. It's safe. Sometimes you can't even follow their judging.
    And I don't know it all, I'm always learning something, and isn't that the fun of it.
    If you get the opportunity to go to Tom Coen's new seminar, it is a gold mine of information handed to you.
     
  7. Narmowen

    Narmowen Forums Enthusiast

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    In my state, you are completely wrong. The prof. handlers have chased all of the owner handlers out of the ring. When I show a dog dozens of times, get over a dozen reserves, under multiple judges, to be beat by the same handler every time, I know that there's something wrong. Especially when I get a Can. Ch on him in under 6 months, competing against AKC/CKC champs, and beating them. Placing in Groups against other wonderful dogs. When I see a **** dog (and I mean, a **** dog) being drug around the ring, can't stand on a table, beat a champion dog owned by a owner/handler, there's something wrong. The **** dog was handled by a prof. handler. It's always the same handler. Always. How can you say that there's nothing wrong with that? Yes, they make a living at that. That's not what I'm saying.

    Hmmm....let's point this out. 6 month old Sheltie. Got his championship when he was under a year in Canada. Shown in multiple AKC shows. Always beat by prof. handlers. Got 1 point at an AKC show. Out of 5 Shelties shown in Canada in a period of about a year, we put a Ch. on all of them. Two father/son's, 2 brothers and 1 sable and white bitch. My boy got 2 group placements. The son (the 6 month old above) had the best puppy in show, and points. But yet, out of these five, all were shown in the US, dozens of shows for each dog, but only one was pointed. The common factor? Prof handlers always beat us. Always.

    I have worked with prof. handlers. Taken multiple classes.

    Yes, the work they do by taking judges out to dinner. By buying them breakfast. Yeah, that's fair. :rolleyes2:

    And at that I'm stepping out of this.
     
  8. Kamikazi

    Kamikazi Forums Regular

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    Thanks for the info. Yes, he's a happy and energetic little guy :)

    He wasn't quite as good tonight, but I think that's because he was hungry. I did try backing away from the table a few feet and he thought about jumping off of the table, BUT decided against it. YAY!

    Does it matter if he sits on the table if he's being still? Or should he stay standing? Posed?

    Sure wish there was a video for novices so we wouldn't have to bug our breeders/other exhibitors with inane questions!
     
  9. tofu pup

    tofu pup Moderator

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    Awesome! I'm glad he was a good boy tonight. Careful about backing away from the table; you'll never really have to do this in the ring, and it might be just too much of a temptation for him to take a flying leap!

    Ideally, he will stay standing (still, posed) while the judge touches his head and body, checks his teeth, and checks his testicles. Judges are usually pretty patient with puppies: sometimes when they start to go over the body, the pup will sit down, and the judge should back off for a moment while you gently stand the baby back up again. Puppies usually sit because they're feeling a little overwhelmed, so this is where you (the handler) want to radiate calm and confidence, and just set him back up on his feet.

    It shouldn't be hard for him to learn to stay standing. This is where a "training buddy" (friend, kid, spouse) can help: you set the pup up, s/he pretends to be the judge and starts the exam. If Tyr starts to sit, just slip your hand under his thigh or tummy and gently hold him up. Tell him, "That's it, stand, good boy" in a soft, neutral voice. Once the exam is done, he gets big hugs and lots of praise. He'll learn!
     
  10. Narmowen

    Narmowen Forums Enthusiast

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    Something that I've found that helps in that last stage is outside a grocery store (or any kind of store, library etc). If people want to pet the puppy (which they will want to do), stack him, and have them touch him. Or don't even stack him, just really let them touch and pet him. It helps him/them get used to strangers touching him.
     

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