Agility class progress

[corbinam]

Yeah, Ashley it definitely makes sense! Especially if you don't have a great Instructor!
However, personally I think for a green dog and green handle you can do a LOT more damage in going too fast by depending and listening to too many people and experimenting with too many different cues and then a dog and handler can really loose the fun of it all. I have become a believer in foundations first, always! Never mind the injury risks, when a dog is not ready or has not been taught properly.

That definitely makes sense.

I guess I just don't think that the answer to any green handler's questions should be "ask your instructor". The members of this forum are a wealth of information, and you're right, not all of it is correct. But, the OP asked for advice, and that's what I gave.

She may have a great instructor, but if many dogs were having issues with straight lines, it is absolutely clear that the dogs haven't been taught to value jumps. How you correct that can vary, but the dog needs to learn to love jumps. It is also widely accepted that if you always feed the dog from your hand, your dog learns to turn into you rather than work ahead. Sure you can use a target plate, throw a toy, etc...at the end, but that is something that doesn't vary between systems (or instructors).

OP came to us because Riley had an issue she wanted help correcting...what would you, and the others recommend? Just keep going to class and hope it will correct itself? Sheltieche is right...these dogs are sequencing with no value for single obstacles. The sooner OP can fix that, the better Riley will be in the classes to come.

We aren't telling her to ignore what she's doing in class, she's just doing some research and studying to be better prepared for what her instructor is asking her to do.

Also, I agree 100% when you say "foundations first" which is what I think the issue is. Too often people start sequencing before their dogs are ready, so you need to do some work on the side with the foundations (like sending to one jump from wherever because your dog should know its job) before you start doing anything "beautiful" like sequencing.

 

[Silaria]

I understand where everyone is coming from in saying "don't go looking for outside help because you could get confused"...but at the same time consider that not everyone has great resources like you do. If I only listened to the instructors available to me at my club (and even they differ from one to the other) I would not be where I am now competitively.

I fully understand and can appreciate that, Ashley. The reality is that everyone has to judge their own situation for themselves and do what they feel is best.

Regarding the learning from other resources, I think Toffee's Mom said it better than I did (emphasis is mine):

I agree with Sharon and Silaria.
While I really value and love all discussions and different viewpoints on agility in particular, it's important to listen to your primary Instructor if he/she is a good one whom you trust!

My club has a number of good instructors but one in particular I will go out of my way to take classes with because I ALWAYS learn something from her. I personally believe she's the best instructor we have.

There is no one right way.

I agree with this too (and the rest of this paragraph but I wanted to focus on this statement).

As much as I believe this, I've also learned that if a green handler and dog keep trying too many different things they potentially end up not communicating with each other clearly because things change too much. Sometimes its best to find what works for your team and stay with it.

Now, an experienced handler with a green dog may be able to try different things to find what works best for communicating with the dog but once they find it they stick with that style and don't mix it up.

What it boils down to, regardless of HOW you approach a skill, because, yes, there IS more than one correct method, when you find what works for your team, remain consistent.

 

[danisgoat]

What it boils down to, regardless of HOW you approach a skill, because, yes, there IS more than one correct method, when you find what works for your team, remain consistent.

This is a great recommendation. With anything regarding training. Consistence is the key.

 

[SheltieChe]

the problem with us at the beginning I did not understand that difference between trainers and various teaching. I love my club dearly, this is great place to be, but I have started Leo in beginners agility last week and they started right from sequencing...Leo is fearless so I had not trouble running him, Aframe, curved tunnel, teeter, whatever but is this a right way to start? BTW we had same deal- none of the dogs could do several jumps in a row, including Leo. I have trained him with one jump but did not built yet to more. Leo is 9 months old so we are not in a hurry but I would love to practice contacts on the board and weaves with 2 poles, turns on the flat with no jumps or bars on the ground. If your trainer does not offer this for the agility beginners class I would be wary and look to supplement your training somewhere else.
I have found that not tying stay or lead out to building the drive works best- i.e. if you trying to build jumping, especially over several jumps, it is much better just to run with your dog, because natural instinct to chase takes over. I had one trainer that used targets and it did not work for us, my present trainer does not use them as they hard to fade.
I have also found that even in such big place as Chicago, few agility places offer decent fundamentals classes.

 

[DPSheltie]

Wow! Thanks for all the responses everyone! We are doing jump clinic next class, but I wanted some ideas to maybe work on too. We really don't have any equipment at home, but hubby now wants to build some jumps after running Riley. Our advanced beginner class is all about focusing upon building handling skills, so these problems are bound to show up as we learn, right?

Ashley- I think that you are right about Riley not valuing jumps as much. With the small sequences we have been doing a jump to a contact/tunnel to a jump to the table/contact. I think that since we had been doing those type sequences, Riley views the tunnel and the A frame as his reward for jumps! It's probably why he was having trouble doing 2-3 jumps in a row together. He flies up and over the A frame every time he has a 'whee' moment in class!

Our trainer had some of the others dropping treats down after each jump to keep them moving forward, but didn't with Riley for some reason (I can't remember....). I think I may set up some jump-like obstacles this weekend to work on sending him over a couple independently to be ready for jump class since the are no classes this weekend (BOO!!)

Sharon-I know she is awesome! I definitely want to keep his stays, although that is actually his 'wait', you should see his stays
(now he will completely prove me wrong next time I put him in a stay...)


I really do enjoy hearing how everyone else is training/has trained particular things since I love learning about different techniques.

 

[Sharon]

I think you will do extremely well with Riley and your teacher.Maybe next year or later this fall we will see you at a trial.My sit stay is also a wait for my dogs so what ever one I use they know not to budge.I always get compliments on their stays .I dont use targets for jumping but do use them in contacts.I dont need to rev my dogs up for anything.They have drive.

 

[Toffee's Mom]

I still have am working on building values for jumps, but in particular the tire... you know, it may swallow Toffee whole or so he told me, lol

A great game we did at one of the seminars was standing by the jumps facing the standard and do NOTHING and reward only when dog jumps over, throwing the cookie and again... switching up sides.. I am throwing the cookie with the opposite arm so it shows the dog how my shoulders move, etc... it's a good game!
Now that I am getting more jumps I can't wait to do more!

 

[SheltieChe]

A great game we did at one of the seminars was standing by the jumps facing the standard and do NOTHING and reward only when dog jumps over, throwing the cookie and again... switching up sides.. I am throwing the cookie with the opposite arm so it shows the dog how my shoulders move, etc... it's a good game!
Now that I am getting more jumps I can't wait to do more!

I am not understanding what you mean by opposite arm? Like you both facing the jump but you throw your cookie with arm that is furthest to the dog? Why?
what you were doing called shaping vs luring your dog over the jump with food in you hand...
Shaping might take initially longer but it is much stronger as behavior.
I am guilty of luring too but not anymore, love watching those brain cells work and developing patience in myself What has changed for me is from traditional linear shaping where as you describe you wait until behavior happens and you reinforce it you stimulate the situation I am moving to shaping with drive- lets say same situation- waiting until dog jumps but first you have a good game of chasing or tugging, then you have a buddy to do restrain your pup while you standing by the jump, I bet you will get better faster results in a matter of minutes...
Toffee might benefit from getting more revved up before his tire as well...

 

[Toffee's Mom]

I am not understanding what you mean by opposite arm? Like you both facing the jump but you throw your cookie with arm that is furthest to the dog? Why?
what you were doing called shaping vs luring your dog over the jump with food in you hand...
Shaping might take initially longer but it is much stronger as behavior.
I am guilty of luring too but not anymore, love watching those brain cells work and developing patience in myself What has changed for me is from traditional linear shaping where as you describe you wait until behavior happens and you reinforce it you stimulate the situation I am moving to shaping with drive- lets say same situation- waiting until dog jumps but first you have a good game of chasing or tugging, then you have a buddy to do restrain your pup while you standing by the jump, I bet you will get better faster results in a matter of minutes...
Toffee might benefit from getting more revved up before his tire as well...

Yes, I agree and we always tug and build drive before we engage in any agility type behaviour, that is what I do already. We are doing great.

Yes that is what I was describing shaping. What I meant with the opposite arm IS my shoulders move, yes it is the arm where my dog is, but the shoulder movement of throwing the cookie will coincide with looking almost like a send.. If that makes sense

 

[k9kreationz]

Coming from someone who has a decent instructor, but who now I'm questioning, have listened to a lot of great advice here and taken what works for me, AND someone who's sit-stay has gone to the dumps.....take what I say as you want. lol.

Keep the "wait". Trust me. Just keep reinforcing it. Unless you specifically want to go to a running start line. Which, from my little experience already, isn't easy.

Riley looks like he's having a TON of fun!!! Yay! That's a good thing.

I also noticed Riley is more handler focused (could be just this part of his training/experience), so work on also making sure he becomes obstacle focused too. From what everyone is saying, a balance is best. On the runs with your hubby and the tunnel and jumps, I noticed that hubby is veering off of the 3rd jump, and is pulling Riley with him. Probably because Riley wants food. Hubby is going to need to learn to run straight, lol. At least until you get him more obstacle focused and voila! You don't have to baby him anymore (Riley, not your husband).

But since you say you love your trainer and that she is great, I'd take the video and ask her, "do you think it was me veering off that pulled Riley off that last jump?" If she says yes, then you can ask, how do I make it so he knows to keep going forward. If she says no, and that he should know to go ahead, ask "how should he know to go ahead? what command or body position should i be giving"?

A lot of times, I will take what I hear here, and ask my trainer about it. Sometimes she's very helpful. Other times, she's not at all. And doesn't give me any feedback on how to fix the issue, or work on a specific thing to give Koji more knowledge on his job. hence why I said my trainer can be hit or miss. But if your's is great, then ask her what you were doing wrong, or what Riley needs to learn to get it right. She should also be able to tell you if you're "not there yet" aka too novice. Or if you just need to work on things. i.e. Koji should know specific things, but because I didn't work on it heavily, he's unsure about it. He's not green enough to say, "he hasn't learned it yet", but he's not experienced for them to say, "he's just blowing you off". So, that means I know it's a training issue that I need to spend more time on. (like contacts, ugh!).

Whatever you do, Riley is having fun and that's the most important thing, right? Right!