Rally Skills

corbinam

corbinam

Moderator
I set a secret goal this year to get my dogs a title in obedience and herding. I think dogs that have titles from all 3 venues are super impressive, and I've been short on goals these days...so it seemed like a great idea! Herding it seems like I'm at the mercy of my instructor. We have our first lesson this week, so TBD on that! All I want is an HT, which I think is an achievable goal--at least for the brown dogs. Enzo has to decide that sheep herding is more fun than poop eating :ick

Anyways, I thought I'd spend 5 minutes outside today seeing where our rally skills are. Umm. Here's where they are: nowhere. I need some advice. I've asked for tips before, but I think I gave up before I got started. Would love to know some tips and tricks!

Bentley: I started with him because I think he's the most likely to do well. He's very laid back and sort of just walks by my side naturally, so I feel like that's a good start! He did spend a lot of time while we were working getting distracted and looking to see if the neighbor's dog was outside to fence chase :rolleyes2: Anyways, that aside, I think he's doing okay. He'll walk next to me (not super precise, but he watches me and keeps pace with me if I speed up or slow down), and he has a nice front and a decent finish to my left side (I just call this "side"). I then decided to try the thing where the dog goes behind you to sit at your side. Umm. He was so confused. I tried to get him to follow a treat but he's so conditioned to not cut behind me that he kept bouncing back in front of me, even though I had a treat down by his nose and I was passing the leash from one hand to the other behind my back. Any tips on that?

Lexi: She's got a decent shot, but she tends to bark during the exercises. I can't tell if that's because that's just what she does or if she thought we were getting ready to do agility (I sometimes walk her at my side around the ring before class to warm her up and she barks a ton). Everything she does is sloppy, but she does have a front and a side--though there's some barking. Question is this...should I work on precision first? Or only reward when she doesn't bark even if it's a bit sloppy? She's also my first to quit a "boring" exercise when she's not getting treats immediately (she does this in agility, too, with boring exercises like jump drills). Also, during heel, she forges REALLY bad. I'm basically tripping on her because she's halfway in front of me. Should I wait for her to get back behind/beside me? Or should I lure her back? Or should I start with making being by my side SUPER rewarding? (See below)

Enzo: Yikes. Potentially a lost cause. I know too little about obedience training and far less about training a dog that doesn't give a you-know-what. He has a side that we use to set him up for agility sometimes, but it's not great. He has zero loose leash walking, much less heeling (didn't help that the neighbor's dog came outside and despite me staying in the part of the yard where we couldn't see her, Enzo wanted to go check it out/fence chase :rolleyes2:). I tried to start with walking with him by my side but it was a nightmare. He would just go to the end of the leash and then turn around and spin and lay down (his default). I should also mention that he's not super treat motivated, but far too toy motivated to use a toy for precision work. So then I thought I should go back to basics and just make being beside me on the left hand side the best place to be. So I started with luring (how we taught his side command) and tried to fade my arm and just reward him with his head next to my left leg. Is that the right first step to start with? I don't even know. It went poorly, but I'm happy to continue it if that's where we should begin.

Sorry for the long write up, but I really want to try to work at this!

And yes, we do have some places here that teach rally but they aren't on evenings when I'm available. Plus I don't know if they'd know what to do with a dog like Enzo...seriously!
 
Hmm, we train rally skills once in awhile (usually when it's icky out). I'm not the best at it, but maybe I can help.

With Bentley I think you just need to step it back and work with him with NO distractions in order to get that precision. Maybe in a room where it's just you and him. As for the going behind you move.. just work in small steps. If you are luring with a treat, reward even if he takes just one step.

Lexi sounds a lot like Cruz where they get bored easily. When I train rally skills, I use higher value treats to start with and get that excitement level up. From experience, YES to working precision first. I didn't do this with Cruz when we started and paid for it.. when all of a sudden he wasn't getting treats for sloppy or off to the side sits, he just got frustrated with me. If she's walking in front of you, I would just stop and wait for her to refocus and come back to your side. Let her find her brain again and remember what her job is (this is assuming that she knows how to heel already?)

I think that with some more impulse work, you could use a toy to get precision out of E. Does he have a heel or a side yet? If so, I would just do lots of It's Your Choice work with a toy to start with. Not too sure if you're familiar with that game, so if not, let me know and I can post a link for you. This will help him do less exciting work with accuracy, but still get super exciting rewards for it. Once you have this, I would use a toy for the most simple of things, like a front, and lots of toy rewards.
 
While I'm trying to think of how best to help you with the rest of your rally questions, I'm going to comment on Enzo and rally...

I've been working with Keiran for a year in Rally and so far I've been able to get him to do the complex stations but anything involving heeling - FOR GET IT! I recall talking with Dr. Shelli and her alluding to the fact that these Blackmyst dogs finding rally and obedience 'boring' until they get older. Hopefully she'll pop in and comment further on this.

One other thing to keep in mind, while Rally is a great starting place to get into Obedience, it's not viewed the same as Obedience by AKC. Perfect example - Rally doesn't count toward a versatility title.

The BIGGEST piece of advice I can give you, because I'm struggling with this now as I work on a CD with Edan... teach proper heel position! When teaching them to walk in heel, hold a treat glued to the seam of your pant leg. Keep them in as tight as possible to your side. Remind them to sit at heel every time you stop. You may only have to take a few steps and stop so you can reward the heel behavior but it will be worth it.

The other thing I can suggest is don't look back at them when heeling, use your peripheral vision to maintain the connection with your dog. If you turn your head to look at them, you'll turn your shoulders which will push them behind you - out of heel position. As agility folks, this is a challenge because we're told not to take our eyes off our dog.

Wish we lived closer because I'd love to help you get started on your rally and obedience journey.
 
When we were learning finishes the way we taught 'around' was to have the dog sitting beside you in heel position, tell them to wait and pivot in front of them. Then, with a treat in your right hand as well as the leash (it's awkward I know, I felt so uncoordinated) lure the dog with the treat to go around you while you pass the leash and treat into your left hand and bring the dog into a sit and then reward.
 
Cubby is just turning 2 this week. I swear he is the most immature dog I have ever met. He works at everything appropriately, but he is JUST coming into working with a mature mind and not a puppy mind. He still acts like a puppy at home complete with zoomies and pulling Melli's tail. I really think Shay, Melli, and Daddy (not ME of course) spoiled him too much. The best thing I have done with Cubby is go spend a couple days with just me and him at my Mom's post a surgery she had. Him being alone for extended time got him thinking a bit more maturely. Perhaps Keiran also has that "baby of the family" thing going?
 
To paraphrase Ralph Wiggum - "Oh boy, heeling - that's where I'm a Viking!"

Well, maybe not a Viking, but I've had a lot of fun teaching it to my dog.

The first advice I can give you is repetition - a lot of Obedience/Rally/heeling is building muscle memory. You want certain things (like sits at halt) to become automatic. Likewise, certain manoeuvres (like finish-right and finish-left) will feel awkward for a while, because your dog won't really understand them. That's OK. Keep repeating them, with patience and consistent rewards, and (have faith!) the dog will come to understand. For my dog, it's kind of a Greek-drama Recognition Scene - all of a sudden, the light bulb goes on!


OK, for precise heeling... I've had the best luck using disks and platforms. My disk was a 9" aluminum cake pan that I taped a circle of grippy rubber drawer-liner to. My platform is a piece of plywood that I cut to fit my dog's "sit" exactly. The platform helps your dog learn positions (heel position, front position). It's precise: the platform is next to you in heel position, and either the dog is on it, or he ain't.

The disk teaches your dog to pivot from the front end. This will help the dog "swing in" for correct heel position (it will also make your left finishes fast and joyful!). Here's a Youtube video of disk/pivot training. I will confess that it took a very long time (maybe a solid month?) for my dog to really "get it" and start using pivoting to swing into heel. (But maybe, like Ralph Wiggum, my dog is a little slow.) However, once she understood, the lesson has really stuck! I still get the disk out now and then, because pivoting on the disk = lots of cookies = fun game!, but at this point, between the disk and the platform, she's REALLY good at "finding heel" and staying in it.

Again, there is a lot of repetition in teaching Obedience/Rally/heeling skills. (Or maybe it's just me.) It's a friendly, playful, fun repetition, but it's repetitive nonetheless. It's less intuitive (for dog and handler alike) than Agility, but once the dog understands, it's a lot of fun.
 
been thinking a lot of what advice to give....

definitely start in a distraction free area....

heeling- get the dog (whichever...) into heel position, take one step, stop and sit dog. do that for a while and then add more steps- one at a time. that will help get the sit whenever you stop. reward this heavily with hand right at seam of pants to make this the best place to be.
for Lexi, if she gets ahead of you, you can try the turn around and go the other way method- might help to keep her at your side if she never knows when you are going to turn.
I'd say with Enzo, the hardest part is that your hand is above his head- even if he was treat motivated. Cran was easy - his head was right by my hand so keeping the cookie right in front of his nose was easy. Dixie was a little more challenging- I used the spoon with her- long wooden type spoon with either squeeze cheese or peanut butter on it so that the left shoulder stays in upright position.

when working fronts and finishes- only do one at a time. so if you are working finishes, sit the dog and you move into front position and get the dog to finish to which ever side you want.

I'm sure that I'm leaving tons out and I'll probably remember more things later....................
 
Be patient. It takes time. Lacey and I started taking rally/obedience classes last summer along with agility. It's taken a lot of time and work, but they all will catch on.
 
Rally is heeling, in its less precise format and most of the exercises are little doodles we do with our dog to teach heeling. :) So, with patience and rewards, teach your dog to stay with your left leg. Praise and reward often, and let him know how to get into heel from other positions and places. You can do this, even with Enzo. Might take some time, but honestly it takes me about 2 years (and more) to get good heeling. Justus at 5 is a pro, Flyer at almost 2 is learning by trial and error. Enjoy the process, and I'd work in a lower distraction place. Fence running with the neighbor's dog is just too much distraction (but what an awesome reward for a few steps of heeling!)
 
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