"take it"

J

Junebug

Forums Regular
Well, I don't know if I'm doing this right or will regret this. BUT, I've got this new puppy, and he seems very keen to learn things. I haven't seriously trained dogs in about 10 years, and before that I was an assistant for a private trainer who ran classes. I got as far as a CDX on one dog who was working on utility when life got in the way.

So, as I'm working with the new puppy (16 weeks this week) I decide to introduce the dumbell. After just a few repititions of "take it", pop it in his mouth, treats & praise, he's beginning to reach for it. I can't believe it. My last competition dog I had to use the "ear pinch" method, and I don't know if that's even still done anymore.

So, can anyone warn me if I'm messing this up? What is the typical method of teaching the obedience retrieve these days?
 
Just now seeing this Junebug, I start the retrieve when I first meet my dogs and just build on the play until I have prety reliable retrievers. I praise for anything in their mouths, even if it is my best slipper, and reward with a treat.

I reward them for picking things up, and in a different game, I teach them to come to me fast... at some point all the games converge and I have a retrieve.

Never understood the ear pinch, have not needed it for my three obedience dogs, and the one who didn't get in the ring.

Sounds like you got a lot of talent to work with! Cool!!!!
 
Junebug said:
... My last competition dog I had to use the "ear pinch" method, and I don't know if that's even still done anymore...
Click to expand...

2GoodDogs said:
...Never understood the ear pinch, have not needed it for my three obedience dogs, and the one who didn't get in the ring...
Click to expand...

I had never, (ever) heard of the "ear pinch" method of training a dog, so as is my usual custom, I immediately went to YouTube for some videos to give me some insight. After watching about two or three very interesting videos (and after checking to see if each of them might have been posted on April Fool's Day), I have arrived at a couple of questions: Are these people kidding??? and Has anyone here actually used the ear pinch method??? and Did it work??? I gotta say, the few vides I saw looked more like comedy routines than they did effective training methods. I would love to hear from anyone who knows something about this method. PS - I don't plan to use it, I just want to know if anyone knows anything about it.
 
I don't know the ear pinch method, and I don't think I want to know.

Off and Take it, were one of the first things I ever taught my dogs. I use it for treats, dinner, toys.... (next most important, of course, is recall) (btw my word for Take it is a more generic Yes)

Off is especially important if they are going for something nasty. Take it is equally important as you want to control when they are allowed to go for something.

Fortunately, these are the two easiest things to train! Even easier than a down!
 
Unless I'm wrong the premise with the ear pinch, is to make the dog uncomfortable, causing the dog to open his mouth, and then the dumbell is inserted and the ear pressure instantly released and praise ... then the dumbell is removed.

I watched as one of the country's top competition people used this method at a seminar. They sat in folding chairs, the dog in between them and after a few pinches and the ensuing dog screams, the dog understood it was to open its mouth to accept the dumbell.

I vowed I would never, ever, do this to a dog.

knock wood, I have never had to.

Went to another seminar, the accomplished trainer taught a dog to do the same thing, accept the dumbell, with a clicker and treats. If I can't use my playful method, then I will get a clicker and treats and shape the retreive.
 
Ok....why are we forcing the dog to take a dumbbell?

This must be some competition that I'm unaware of. :confused2:

But I know I would not do an ear pinch for any reason.

I'll never forget my grandfather whacking one his prized Arabian horses with the water bucket because it would not lift its hoof to be cleaned. My grandfather said he needed to get the horse's attention for its own good. I fled the barn in tears.

Nope.....
 
Retrieving skills are a big part of advanced obedience.

in open, the dog will need to retrieve his dumbbell from a toss to the floor about 20' away, and to go out over a jump, then pick up the dumbbell and jump with it in his mouth, returning to the handler and release it on command.

in utility the dog will directed to retrieve one of three cotton gloves, a scented metal and leather article...
 
I think the primary reason some trainers resort to the ear pinch is that it is quicker than other methods. It took almost 3 months of shaping to get Phebe to reliably hold the dumbbell. We started by rewarding any interaction with the dumbbell. The progression was -- looking at it, touching it, mouthing it, picking it up, taking it from between my knees and finally holding until released. It's a good game to play while you're watching TV.

Also, I would teach the take it and hold separately from the retrieve and before the retrieve. That way you've built a very high value for the dumbbell before you introduce the excitement of retrieving.
 
The ear pinch is still used by gun dog people and hunters to force a dog to take something in it's mouth. The idea is you hurt the dog so it opens it's mouth then you shove the item in - you still need to work on getting the dog to hold it. It does amaze me that it is still that popular in today's day and age, it is lazy and cruel. There's really no excuse for obedience people using the method, they don't deserve to be titled it they can only train a dog with cruelty.
 
You should have seen the uproar a recent video taken of someone practising retrieves with the ear pinching method at the side of an obedience trial has caused here! FINALLY people are paying attention to how dogs are trained.

http://youtu.be/_fzFvsouTCs

Yes, it's still sadly used by some obedience trainers here. I believe this person trains under a school that still does it. Here's the newspaper article on this (note my little soundbite at the bottom of the article! :biggrin2:) - http://mypaper.sg/top-stories/doggone-it-way-train-pooch-20140423

I don't believe an ear pinch is quicker. I trained a dead retrieve to hand with Juliet using a clicker in minutes just playing with someone's dumbbell waiting our turn at an obedience trial (not the same one as the above). And this was before I worked on getting her to love fetching balls! Had I done it with ear pinching I think she would be so confused she'd shut down. She will avoid my hand as it nears her face when I take the dumbbell for sure. Training would also no doubt be delayed because I would have to stop and cry my eyes out and then kill myself slowly for making my baby girl scream and hurt like that! There are definitely better ways to train this than with an ear pinch.
 
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