There Ought to Be a Law

[SheltieChe]

Like all tools education is the key! If not used right even a flat collar can be harmfull. Have I used a prong collar... yes I have when I was raising guide dogs we had a poodle and a doberman that needed it. There was no way my son who was 9 at the time was going to be able to handle a dog that weighed almost the same as he did! We made sure it was fitted properly and it was used for training only. After a couple of months he could walk and train her with just a regular training collar, which is what the guide dogs wear. I also reccomended the prong to someone who has one of my puppies. Why? Because the 8 month old puppy is a serious car chaser!! She has tried several different trainers and behaviourists and nothing has helped, and yes she tried positive only training first. It is getting to the point where she cant take him out to potty or walk with out him lunging at cars, God forbid he ever gets loose! I would rather them use that than hear he was hit by a car.

Jessica, with all due respect nobody could beat my car chaser Leo
he chases shadows on the ceiling, fly, wheels on the suitcase and anything that moves in general. By no means I am a dog trainer, actually I am quite lousy at it but if I can teach my dog not to lunge at passing cars, then everyone can. Sure Leo can never be off leash unless in safe surround, you just can not breed out of the dog what he meant to do, but I have tiniest show leash on him and walk him with leash on my thumb and yes we live in suburbia...
sorry to hear that classes were not successful but please recognize it was training that at fault. Its not the dog, and positive reinforcement method is not flawed. It is poor sloppy application of training that did not give desired results.

 

[SheltieChe]

I think if people believe that prong collar is a tool they just kidding themselves... be honest and admit... it is punishment! I intend to punish my dog for behavior I do not like when I put prong collar on. Prong collar meant to apply uncomfortable pressure when dog lunges. Here is turn around- how about concentrating on behavior I like and reward for it?
Violence begins when knowledge ends. There are better ways out there.
At least be honest with yourself about what you doing when you apply prong collar to your dog. Also it helps to remember that ONLY reinforcement builds behavior, never punishment so you really not teaching your pup anything with prong collar.

 

[KarenCurtis]

So I say ban the bloody things, they are pain inducing and dog lovers shouldn't want to train with pain and these outdated training methods. These collars are doing more harm than good. Humans will be humans and will use them wrong to top it all off which is all you all agreed on a bad thing!

Because we can't ban everything. Would we then ban anything that can be used as a weapon? People will mis-use martingale collars also, and ordinary collars too.
Education is all we can do, and we are doing it, and so are you! I can see prong collars used in specialized circumstances with certain dogs.
I really don't want to see any more laws than we already have- and it couldn't be enforced anyways.

 

[Toffee's Mom]

So I say ban the bloody things, they are pain inducing and dog lovers shouldn't want to train with pain and these outdated training methods. These collars are doing more harm than good. Humans will be humans and will use them wrong to top it all off which is all you all agreed on a bad thing!

Because we can't ban everything. Would we then ban anything that can be used as a weapon? People will mis-use martingale collars also, and ordinary collars too.
Education is all we can do, and we are doing it, and so are you! I can see prong collars used in specialized circumstances with certain dogs.
I really don't want to see any more laws than we already have- and it couldn't be enforced anyways.[/QUOTE]

Well, heck, this is one of the most valid arguments I have heard all day
I must think how to counter it... if I can, lol

 

[SheltieChe]

Because we can't ban everything. Would we then ban anything that can be used as a weapon? People will mis-use martingale collars also, and ordinary collars too.
Education is all we can do, and we are doing it, and so are you! I can see prong collars used in specialized circumstances with certain dogs.
I really don't want to see any more laws than we already have- and it couldn't be enforced anyways.

but that is where thinking gets muddled
e collars meant to correct by electrocuting
choke collars meant to correct by strangulating
prong collars meant to deliver unpleasant sensation pinching/ needling pressure
Those are coorection devices meant to punish, you put them on your dog with intention to punish for whatever behavior you do not like seeing...
martingale, bluckle collar, gentle leader are collars. Can they be misused? Sure.
Can gentle leader be used without punishing dog- yes, can e collar be effective without punishing dog with electric shock- no. Here is your answer.
Unfortunately nobody going to arrest person who pinches ears, pulls hair or clamps dog's mouth around dumbell during obedience training. The minimum anyone who uses punishments in training should own up and recognize punishment as such.
Don't fool yourself into thinking "oh certain dogs and certain breeds are tough enough and need it... " in Recallers and Puppy peaks we have all kinds of breeds begin represented and sure enough, positive reinforcement works for everybody...
It would be great if more dog owners made a conscious decision if they ok with punishing their dogs and how much.
Here is brilliant possibly the best article SG wrote on possibilities in dog training.
http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2011/08/the-possibilities-in-dog-training/

 

[Toffee's Mom]

but that is where thinking gets muddled
e collars meant to correct by electrocuting
choke collars meant to correct by strangulating
prong collars meant to deliver unpleasant sensation pinching/ needling pressure
Those are coorection devices meant to punish, you put them on your dog with intention to punish for whatever behavior you do not like seeing...
martingale, bluckle collar, gentle leader are collars. Can they be misused? Sure.
Can gentle leader be used without punishing dog- yes, can e collar be effective without punishing dog with electric shock- no. Here is your answer.
Unfortunately nobody going to arrest person who pinches ears, pulls hair or clamps dog's mouth around dumbell during obedience training. The minimum anyone who uses punishments in training should own up and recognize punishment as such.
Don't fool yourself into thinking "oh certain dogs and certain breeds are tough enough and need it... " in Recallers and Puppy peaks we have all kinds of breeds begin represented and sure enough, positive reinforcement works for everybody...
It would be great if more dog owners made a conscious decision if they ok with punishing their dogs and how much.
Here is brilliant possibly the best article SG wrote on possibilities in dog training.
http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2011/08/the-possibilities-in-dog-training/

Good point
Thing is, at least call a spade a spade, it's a 'tool' to control OR train your dog with pain, no matter how they are trying to sell it. There ARE alternatives, if you love your Shelties please seriously give those alternatives a chance and try not to go with pain.

 

[KarenCurtis]

Because we can't ban everything. Would we then ban anything that can be used as a weapon? People will mis-use martingale collars also, and ordinary collars too.
Education is all we can do, and we are doing it, and so are you! I can see prong collars used in specialized circumstances with certain dogs.
I really don't want to see any more laws than we already have- and it couldn't be enforced anyways.

Well, heck, this is one of the most valid arguments I have heard all day
I must think how to counter it... if I can, lol

Well you and I do have good arguments! And we can do it respectfully. I suspect that could happen face to face too.

 

[sable]

I'll chime in, I use a harness. The reason I use one because both of mine are great escape artists out of their collars. Like when I take them to the vet, espcially Lucky, he remembers they took his manhood.

They both walk great, I use the harness so they don't get away, like at the vets. Plus the fact Lady is little.

Big dogs, I used a 50' lead, they were hunting dogs. I never had to use the tools on them. I wanted them to be close hunting dogs, and a little jerk on that rope made them do what I wanted them to do, and my all mighty whistle, working them in the backyard.

I know there are plenty of owners out there that use the tools, especially hunters. Thats not the way we broke our dogs.

Here is my thought on an owner who uses tools and their dog is chained up, leave their dog in the dark, and don't cut the nails. If you can't keep a dog right then that person should not have a dog. Love, patience, repetition, and praise are the only tools around here.