What Kind of Collar Was This Trainer Talking About?

[romeosangiovese]

How do you train recall using it?

If I'm not wrong, recall is trained like this: while the dog is away from you with the collar on, you hit the button and zap it continuously until he turns and comes towards you then you release the button and relieve the dog of the pain.

It makes use of negative reinforcement to train recall.

You can use 100% positive reinforcement to train a turn-on-a-dime recall in high distractions. There's really no need for shock collars.

Psalms, you will be better off getting a copy of Leslie McDevitt's Control Unleashed and playing the Look At That game with your Sammy.

 

[VallejoSheltie]

Well, I was primarily motivated by Boots having nipped another young Rhodesian Ridgeback just be neutering.
That was a $500 vet bill as RR's are very slim and his nip came about an inch from hitting a lung. Did not look like anything more than a small nip from the outside.
Luckily the owner was very nice and split it with me as we weren't sure what started it.

So initially I did get it in the event he went girl-crazy again, however before using it I found Lou's site and decided to use his technique.

The vast majority of people at my local dog parks have only limited success when trying to recall at the park. And lets not mention how -everyone- has to scramble to run after their dogs when a loud scrap starts up.

My dog and a ball obsessed Lab are the only ones who seem uninterested in joining in.

A lot of people do use them to zap their dogs, which is negative reinforcement and even if done appropriately is not getting the best use out of it.
I use it to 'stim' him, and have added treats and praise when he 'gets it'.
Like I said, on the lowest setting that he appears to feel it, where he looks around as if he's heard or seen something, or hid a flea bite him, I've also tried it on myself on wet skin on my neck. And it is a tingle like a dead 9v battery. And he has a fair amount of hair which increases resistance and reduces the effect.

If he associated the collar with pain, I would think he would avoid me when time to put it on.

I can't imagine having to use a shock collar to get a dog to come to me.

I can almost see using one for dogs doing complicated work away from the owner, like retrieving and such, but not for basic obedience.

 

[VallejoSheltie]

Again, I disagree with your interpretation of what modern e-collar training is actually doing.

Here is a good youtube video which shows what to do, and how to do it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OfElO8kg_k

Take the 5-6 minutes to watch it and learn.
Modern e-collar training does not have to be negative reinforcement.
As the collar clearly shows, there is no pain involved. There is a sensation felt, and actions beget praise and reinforcement is thus achieved.

What isn't shown here is the common practice many people use in addition, which is the pager function. Once you have trained recall, you can add the pager to the equation and often times use that in place of stimulation.

What is sad to see is that many in the dog world are still stuck on the status quo. Just as 20-30 years ago, people were stuck on a different status quo, and pooh-pooded Positive Reinforcement training.
Funny how every generation ends up stuck in its own rut.

There are loads and load of people who persist in saying that +P training simply has not worked consistently for them, however I guess they can all be generalized as being too lazy or incompetent to do the training right...

I would say that people who perpetuate the belief that all e-collar training is negative and cruel are partially responsible for a portion of the dogs that are euthanized every year.
Scaring people off of a proven, humane training option is culpable.

There's a reason why people using modern e-collar training are as pushy as those proponents of only +P training. They've love their dogs, they've seen it work, and they want to share. Guess it'll just take another generation.

Here is an interesting take on +P only, and its limitations.

If I'm not wrong, recall is trained like this: while the dog is away from you with the collar on, you hit the button and zap it continuously until he turns and comes towards you then you release the button and relieve the dog of the pain.

It makes use of negative reinforcement to train recall.

You can use 100% positive reinforcement to train a turn-on-a-dime recall in high distractions. There's really no need for shock collars.

Psalms, you will be better off getting a copy of Leslie McDevitt's Control Unleashed and playing the Look At That game with your Sammy.

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

The vast majority of people at my local dog parks have only limited success when trying to recall at the park. And lets not mention how -everyone- has to scramble to run after their dogs when a loud scrap starts up.

I guess it's just a difference in situations. A dog park is not a place my dogs have ever or will ever go. I don't want to put them in a situation where they have to defend themselves constantly. It seems that more people ruin their dogs training and temperaments at dog parks. How many times do we hear "my dog got attacked..."

I have one dog that won't recall, but she won't recall to anybody. I won't shock her into it, so I just don't put her in a situation where a recall is necessary. If the choice is "teach dog a recall by shock" or "don't go to the dog park", that's an easy choice for me.

 

[VallejoSheltie]

Dog parks-

I've been going primarily to one small town dog park since Boots was 4 months old, so about 18 months.
To date, I've seen a handful of actual scraps, of which mine and maybe one other had a nip/bite.
I've never seen nor heard of any real fight or confrontation take place that was serious. However I have seen 90%+ dogs seeming to have loads and loads of fun, meeting other dogs and people, and just having a blast.
Some find a friend to wrestle with, others like to run and race each other, others just want to play fetch. And there are a number which seem content to hang by themselves or their people and watch the other dogs, like a couple of Shiba's which are naturally not very playful.
Very few seem to come in overly shy, or fearful. Even the pups that do, like mine did, very quickly learn real dog-dog socialization, and I've seen mine and others go from shy puppies to outgoing, happy go lucky pups who intermingle with dachshunds(sp) to a couple of pony sized Great Danes.
The BIG thing is, I haven't heard of any of them that are overly dog reactive, ie agressive fence behavior, or terrorizing the other neighborhood dogs. I would assume a good part of it is the dog socialization they learn at the park.

I've seen people bring in Rescue dogs who were timid, fearful and reflexively dog aggressive, and watched them become much more balanced and calm. And I should note that these owners did tell everyone about their dog, and kept to a distant corner of the park.

Dogs are nomadic, pack animal descendent. Is not taking them to the park because you fear possible confrontation in their best interests?
I could see this if you had a park like I do nearby which has lots of pitbulls and such who are poorly trained.
However outside of the rare case of a truely introverted and timid dog, I think dog parks are outstanding in allowing a dog to be a dog, with other dogs.

E-Collar-
And again, I would say using an e-collar properly is not shocking a dog.
Its far less 'painful' than zapping your spouse with static electricity. It is a tingle.

For me and mine though, having taught my dog to recall has potentially saved his life by keeping him from darting after cars, bikers, other dogs, and on and on. And that by itself has helped other training quite a bit as a side effect.
Having a dog that won't recall means having a dog on a leash at all time outside of a fenced yard. No dog park, and always on a leash outside.
I would find that very sad for the dog.

Really and truely, consider the possibility that modern day e-collars are not designed to 'zap' as much as to cause an noticable effect akin to a buzzing tingle or a minor annoyance if you up it a bit.
My dog from pup to now has hurt himself worse many, many, many times.
From falling down stairs, to running into sliding glass doors, to bumping his head, nose, feet etc on everything from doors, tables an on and on.
And guess what, he learned (mostly) from it and kept on keeping on. As do
most other things alive.
Most of the people I've met who seem to frown upon e-collars are women. The guys I've talked to about it, either have them (hunters), or were interested once I explained how they are properly used to provide feedback, and not zap the living cr_p out of them.
Not to tick off what appears to be the primarily female membership of the forum, however, I think you can 'mother' a dog too much, and thats why women seem to be averse to this 'negative' reinforcement method.

I wish +P reinforcement worked for everyone, however it doesn't.
Forcing a dog to be leashed whenever it is outside a fenced yard, and never being allowed to mingle and socialize, especially when dogs are such true social animals, because of our fear, just seems illogical.


BTW, I just happened to have the day off, so I reverted to my rambling, soapbox ranting. Not directed really at you, just at what I perceive to be a general problem. Was going to snip most of it, however since electrons are almost free....

I guess it's just a difference in situations. A dog park is not a place my dogs have ever or will ever go. I don't want to put them in a situation where they have to defend themselves constantly. It seems that more people ruin their dogs training and temperaments at dog parks. How many times do we hear "my dog got attacked..."

I have one dog that won't recall, but she won't recall to anybody. I won't shock her into it, so I just don't put her in a situation where a recall is necessary. If the choice is "teach dog a recall by shock" or "don't go to the dog park", that's an easy choice for me.

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

Dogs are nomadic, pack animal descendent. Is not taking them to the park because you fear possible confrontation in their best interests?

Yes. I have a pack and a big back yard. I understand fearful dogs falling into a pack and becoming more comfortable, but I hear more stores about fearful dogs being attacked or intimidated into worse defensive behaviors.

As to electricity and skin. I really don't care if it's just a "tingle" or not. I have a healthy, probably borderline paranoid fear of electricity, and an ability to train my dog without the need of it. Honestly, if I have to shock a dog into that behavior, then I need to rethink if the dog actually needs the behavior.

I also don't think that not zapping a dog means the dog is being "mothered". It means we have effective training methods that don't involve electricity. I have no problem walking my pack dogs in the fields at the National, or on the farm, or calling them away from my gate so people can come in and out. My dogs have fast recalls and love to work.

I will never be convinced that shocking a dog (or whatever you want to call the flow of electricity from device to skin) is the best way to teach basic obedience.

 

[Caro]

Unfortunately I see way too many serious problems come out of dog parks. At the dog club we would often get reports of the latest dog killed or seriously injured. 80% of the time it was a small dog that was attacked. We have one park here that has a small dog section - but unfortunately larger dogs have been know to just jump the fence, and you'll often see adult staffys in the small dog section. For those reasons I steer clear of dog parks.

We have leash free ovals here though and I do go to them, but with the ovals it's a huge area, and although there is usually a large number of dogs, people seperate into smaller groups of like minded dogs some distance apart and are also more likely to keep moving around the oval. And because they aren't fenced in you have to keep an eye on your dog.

Over here e-collars are banned in all but one state - a largely rural area. I did try an e-collar with Deska's car chasing (under vet supervision), but it made no difference. Vet said I would have to have it so high as to 'hurt' him for it to have an effect - something I wasn't willing to do. Concept being that the aversion must be greater than the reward from the behaviour.

 

[Sharon]

What kind of Collar was this traner talking abou?

Yes. I have a pack and a big back yard. I understand fearful dogs falling into a pack and becoming more comfortable, but I hear more stores about fearful dogs being attacked or intimidated into worse defensive behaviors.

As to electricity and skin. I really don't care if it's just a "tingle" or not. I have a healthy, probably borderline paranoid fear of electricity, and an ability to train my dog without the need of it. Honestly, if I have to shock a dog into that behavior, then I need to rethink if the dog actually needs the behavior.

I also don't think that not zapping a dog means the dog is being "mothered". It means we have effective training methods that don't involve electricity. I have no problem walking my pack dogs in the fields at the National, or on the farm, or calling them away from my gate so people can come in and out. My dogs have fast recalls and love to work.

I will never be convinced that shocking a dog (or whatever you want to call the flow of electricity from device to skin) is the best way to teach basic obedience.

I second what you say!!!

 

[VallejoSheltie]

Wow, what kind of parks do you have over there?!?
Over here, aggressive dogs will have their owner asked to leave pretty quickly. In my normal park I've only seen that happen once or twice. I think keeping a dog from socializing with multiple other dogs only increases and reinforces dog-dog fear and aggression. Just a personal opinion though.

Unfortunately I see way too many serious problems come out of dog parks. At the dog club we would often get reports of the latest dog killed or seriously injured. 80% of the time it was a small dog that was attacked. We have one park here that has a small dog section - but unfortunately larger dogs have been know to just jump the fence, and you'll often see adult staffys in the small dog section. For those reasons I steer clear of dog parks.

We have leash free ovals here though and I do go to them, but with the ovals it's a huge area, and although there is usually a large number of dogs, people seperate into smaller groups of like minded dogs some distance apart and are also more likely to keep moving around the oval. And because they aren't fenced in you have to keep an eye on your dog.

Over here e-collars are banned in all but one state - a largely rural area. I did try an e-collar with Deska's car chasing (under vet supervision), but it made no difference. Vet said I would have to have it so high as to 'hurt' him for it to have an effect - something I wasn't willing to do. Concept being that the aversion must be greater than the reward from the behaviour.