100 years of breed ¨improvement¨

May I ask, then, why do you own a Sheltie? Why not a random-bred dog?

I'm thinking the reason Lunatic59 said what he said is because dog's were generally healthier 100 years ago (as far as inherited issues). Some people didn't think dogs were good enough, so they did selected breeding. Selected breeding is very good if done correctly, but can be very harmful to the dogs if done incorrectly. Wouldn't it be nice if our dogs didn't have all the inherited diseases that they didn't have 100 years ago? You really have to ask yourself, 'Could we have had our shelties personality WITHOUT all these problems if people hadn't tried to 'improve' the breed.' I LOVE my dogs the way they are, and I'm VERY willing to deal with their health issues. But it's just pain they didn't have to have.
 
'Could we have had our shelties personality WITHOUT all these problems if people hadn't tried to 'improve' the breed.' I LOVE my dogs the way they are, and I'm VERY willing to deal with their health issues. But it's just pain they didn't have to have.

But that's just what I'm saying. We wouldn't have the Shelties we love today if selective breeding hadn't been done. The same selection that shaped the personality that you like in your dogs also shaped their predisposition to genetic diseases. I'm not saying it's good, I'm saying it is. Now that we (as breeders) know more, we can work on preserving that good personality and breeding genetically-healthier dogs.

Yes, we need to work on health. Yes, we need to continue working on temperaments. But I think it's unfair to disdain the stewards of the breed that has brought us all together.
 
May I ask, then, why do you own a Sheltie? Why not a random-bred dog?

Because I am not an activist, fanatic nor zealot. We've owned various breeds with pure and mixed heritage. Shelties in their current iteration work well with our lifestyle and we've had good experiences with them in the past.

But if we love Shelties, and want to continue to have them, we need to also have a mind towards selecting for Sheltie traits.

There are a number of breeders on this forum who are working hard to produce sound, lovely Shelties that people want to have as part of their families. Please don't dump on us.

I'm sorry if you took that as a blanket statement about all breeders. I am well aware there are breeders who deeply care about their animals as well as the breed. And I fully understand that many of the characteristics of the breed have been from the work of breeders.

My problem is that s great deal of breed ideals are furthered at the expense of overall health. There may be more specimen animals today, but there are also a greater number of medical issues directly from selective breeding. I don't expect breeders to be advanced geneticists and be able to predict some of the negative consequences of the current breeding practices, but if breeders are to be considered "responsible", at least in my mind, they need to concern themselves with breed health before breed standard. Frankly, I don't see that happening.

And again to clarify, I am not saying that breeders aren't concerned at all with breed health, but that standard always seems to take priority.
 
Humans have been selective breeding dogs for hundreds of years. Well before the Kennel Clubs were formed and we had breed standards dogs were being bred for particular purposes, mostly for work, but heck even the toy breeds have been around hundreds of years thanks to imperial courts. We talking about breeding out barking, particular diseases and particular genes - that is still interfering with nature. Although I do agree that breed standards have been used to excess to change some breeds for the worse.

Keep in mind too that many changes have been brought about by better and varied diets and better care. A dog can expend more energy on physical strengthening when they aren't starving of nutrients. In humans we've seen this in the post war period - humans have actually changed shape in only a few generations, and in Germany the height difference between generations since the fall of the Berlin wall has been astounding.

The argument of 'hybrid vigour' is also one that has not been proved. It stems from the very old theories of 'survival of the fittest', which itself has been largely debunked. In nature there isn't as much genetic diversity from breeding alone that you would think. And if you have a look at humans - the least genetically diverse nations actually have the greatest longevity and best health. It's more a matter of 'inbreeding' that causes problems. Plus I read an interesting article that many of the 'better', healthier and fitter dogs don't go off mating indiscriminately - it's usually the poorly cared for ones that get out and wander so mating two poor quality dogs is hardly going to introduce 'hybrid vigour'.
 
Humans have been selective breeding dogs for hundreds of years. Well before the Kennel Clubs were formed and we had breed standards dogs were being bred for particular purposes, mostly for work, but heck even the toy breeds have been around hundreds of years thanks to imperial courts. We talking about breeding out barking, particular diseases and particular genes - that is still interfering with nature. Although I do agree that breed standards have been used to excess to change some breeds for the worse.

Exactly. When breeding animals (including humans) for a specific purpose, it is much different than breeding for a specific attribute because we like it or think it looks good. When breeding work dogs, or ratting dogs, it's not only desirable that they can perform the tasks we would like them to do, but for them to be healthy and long lived, even if for only economic reasons.

Today, clubs have turned this into show with little regard to purpose. As the original article pointed out, many of the working breeds are ill-suited for actual work based upon the weaknesses bred into them to further a standard. *THAT'S* what I take issue with. Floppy ears or prick ears, curled tail, flat tail or no tail ... all that's fine as long as breeding in those traits won't increase physical ailments. And, if they do, see what can be done to minimize them in the breed even if it means losing the curly tail or sloped haunches. Some breeds suffer less with these issues, but it can't be denied that certain breeds have been grossly exaggerated to their detriment in search of a specific "look".

Keep in mind too that many changes have been brought about by better and varied diets and better care. A dog can expend more energy on physical strengthening when they aren't starving of nutrients. In humans we've seen this in the post war period - humans have actually changed shape in only a few generations, and in Germany the height difference between generations since the fall of the Berlin wall has been astounding.

Again very true, If the idea is to have larger, healthier animals. Proper nutrition and exercise will certainly be a large part of that. But, as in breed "standards", too much of anything will eventually work toward the detriment of the animal. Having an abundant food supply food supply in the face of pre-war poverty has led to a generation of obesity here in the US. Exaggerating or isolating specific physical characteristics in dogs *can* (not necessarily *will*) cause unexpected problems.


The argument of 'hybrid vigour' is also one that has not been proved. It stems from the very old theories of 'survival of the fittest', which itself has been largely debunked. In nature there isn't as much genetic diversity from breeding alone that you would think. And if you have a look at humans - the least genetically diverse nations actually have the greatest longevity and best health. It's more a matter of 'inbreeding' that causes problems. Plus I read an interesting article that many of the 'better', healthier and fitter dogs don't go off mating indiscriminately - it's usually the poorly cared for ones that get out and wander so mating two poor quality dogs is hardly going to introduce 'hybrid vigour'.

It would be more like "Natural Selection". "Survival of the fittest" implies a continuation of a species through it's strongest members while the weak and mutations are left to perish. Natural selection is where adaptive mutations of a species that give them advantage in their environment continue in the species to further the advantage. Breeding dogs to standards for sport disregards the work or survival advantages in favor of the desired attribute.

As far as humans are concerned, that is an excellent point because health and survival in those cultures is not from genetic predispositions, but lifestyle and diet. Dogs, at least domesticated ones, have little control over their particular lifestyle or diet and it's up to us to provide them an environment in which to thrive. Look at humans trained for athletics. With taller, faster, heavier, or whatever attribute makes them better at the sport, they have short careers and more physical problems as they age. I wouldn't want to be 7' tall if it meant my back and knees would fail at 40.

While I am neither breeder nor geneticist, I find this a plausible argument.

To the annoyance of most purebred breeders, most of us (vets) tend to side with the mixes (and, no, we don't consider hybrids, like Labradoodles, exempt from the purebred designation). Mutts mostly win out for their sheer hardiness, thriftiness and longevity, due to their lower incidence of genetic disease.

Since they are likely to have a lower risk for receiving a high dose of specific purebred genetic material that can lead to inherited disease, I believe they’re healthier than purebreds in this particular sense. As a result, many mutts have a lower rate of hip dysplasia, certain knee diseases, most spinal diseases, many heart diseases, plenty of cancers and a whole lot of skin, blood, brain, liver and kidney diseases, among others.

Source

As with all discussions of this type, there are two sides and truth/reality will always be somewhere in the middle.
 
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Mixes are not necessarily hardier. It all depends on who mixed with whom.

I have found that I really like the cur type dogs for healthiness while still carrying specific breed traits. Many of these are not highly recognized. They are functional animals. Fad breeding doesn't have a foothold in them as they are bred primarily for function. I think that they remain rooted in an agrarian environment contributes to their hardiness and intelligence. In my opinion, our general loss of the pastoral lifestyle has affected the breeding dogs. And, many other things.

As I look at Shelties, there are different types bred with varied goals in mind. You can choose what suits you based on the particular breeding goals that were aimed for. The standard remains the guide, but there is variation within it obviously. Breeding is an art and a science. Kudos to those who do it well.
 
if you open link of Dog historical pictures there is more pics there
shelties are here
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Pie...ical Pictures/Shetland Sheepdog?sort=9&page=1

If you open the picture with the newsprint(1915) it mentions that Shelties were being bred to be "toy collies! That is 7 to 10 lbs! Clearly that did not happen with the accepted standard but now we are seeing it again with "mini-Shelties". Yikes!

I don't have a problem with the idea in itself. This IS how new breeds evolve. What I do have a problem with is the execution. As others have said, if the sole purpose is to breed to a certain type, and ignoring the genetic and hereditory makeup of the dogs being bred together then it's a disaster.

I think mistakes in breeding were made in the mid century. And all breeds are still recovering from those mistakes. Certainly there is more awareness of the disastrous made. I can only hope that more education and awareness will evolve those breeds gone awry back to better health.

My current fear is the abundance of designer dogs and people speaking of them as a breed. Sorry a golden doodle is a mutt! I've seen them as small as 20 lbs and as big as 100!

P.s. as a side note.....humans obviously have bred themselves over the millennia to improve ourselves. And we all the know the issues involved in to much inbreeding of supposedly noble lines! Europeon royals cross bred over and over again. Disease and madness abounded several hundred years ago before it was figured out. Mad King George for example. Judt saying! :lol:
 
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