Barking/lunging

Julianna,

I am not Caro and therefore not responding to your questions (of which I would not know the answers in any event) but responding re: my particular dog. He seems to be leash reactive and reactive when there is more aversive body contact rather than less. He pulled and lunged some when on a backhook harness but it was when I shifted him to the Easy Walk things got much worse. Now that could have been a coincidence. He seemed to calm down some once I replaced the Easy Walk with the Lupine No-Pull which has less body contact and tightens in a different way with the pull. The only reason I am considering another harness is 1) although he is calmer on the No-Pull, once he gets going it is harder for me to control him 2) I want to see if another harness continues to keep him even calmer. So personally, I think a prong might be the wrong choice for Beau.

What I did find worked today was "find it" which we play in the house all the time. This time I threw a treat down with "find it" and he actually was able to disconnect from his target. However, even if this works in my yard, I hesitate to use it on walks as I don't want to train my very food-oriented pup to eat things from the ground on his walks. So I am still working, working, working with him.
 
Pam,

Good to see that you made some progress! It is important to keep trying! Eventually something sticks! I know that feeling myself!

I do agree that it is important to use the tools that you are most comfortable with. Everyone has a unique training style after all and I think one can achieve the greatest results when they choose the tools most suited to their individual tastes.

I take it that you are probably most interested in just receiving some practical advice on the using the tools you have now. I'll try to help.

It will really help if you work on exercises to improve Beau's attentiveness. He can't get in trouble if he is paying attention to you after all! It seems like the 'find it' game is a great motivator. (Joy loves it too) So let's see if we can work that in your training program.
Try to think about how you can make him work for the privilege of playing that game. It should boost his enthusiasm if the distractions aren't too over powering.

Also work on getting him to understand what the harness pressure means. If he learns that he can 'turn off' the discomfort by paying attention to you or performing a behavior then he won't feel so frustrated because it will give him a sense of control. If he comes to realize that his discomfort is a consequence of his own actions, instead of a random occurrence that he has no control over, and if you guide him to the correct behavior, his confidence is sure to improve!

To set him up for success first work in a lightly distracting environment and then when he is a little distracted put some pressure on the leash and then call him. When he comes over relax the tension on the leash and praise him or even better mark the behavior and praise and treat. If you feel that he has done something you really like then use the action of releasing him to play the 'find it' game as his 'jackpot' reward.

Try it out and let me know how it goes! And sorry if I confused you with my previous lectures. I'm pretty passionate about Joy and dog training. I can get a bit carried away sometimes. I'm a bit worried that I might have come across as a 'pushy salesperson'. I'm not the smartest and most articulate person out there, but I feel like I've learned some good things from experience, and I'm pretty proud of it so I'm eager to share. If someone like me can help even a little bit I'd be very happy but, whether or not you find my advice to be worthy of your attention or not, I wish you luck on your endeavors. Your love for Beau is strong enough so I think you'll keep trying for him and in time you will surely discover a winning strategy!
 
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Just some quick statements as I'm flat out with paperwork atm (will take me a while to do a longer response).

With the collars and harnesses that restrict movement - they will get worse at first. You just have to stick it out. Extinguishing behaviours generally result in worsening before it gets better. It's their 'last stand', they know resistance has worked before so they amp it up. If you give in first then they'll just learn if they fight you they'll eventually get their way (much like kids).

Gentle leader and halti make head collars that are based on horse reins - and need to be used like that. Then there are the no-pull harnesses, Gentle Leader are probably the best known of the front hitch ones, which Pam has mentioned. The lead clips on the chest so if they try to turn away it turns the dogs body back towards you. The idea is you can also lead the dog in your direction, rather than having the dog lead you like with a regular shoulder hitched harness.
 
Caro,

I'm pleased to see that you are taking up my challenge! I understand that real life responsibilities do take priority over strangers on the internet so it is really no problem at all! Even if all you have are quick statements now, I'm grateful that you found this discussion to be important enough to you that you took time out of your busy schedule to reply. Take as long as you need to.

Now with that being said, I hope you don't mind if I work a bit with what you have now. I get the impression that you are a very 'no-nonsense' kind of person. Your dogs must be very well behaved and disciplined. I'm sure you are proud of your dogs. I find dog training stories to be very inspiring so, if it is not too much trouble for you, I would love to read a story about how you trained your dogs! I don't think I'm too bold to assume that we all love bragging about our shelties! And if you use your own personal experiences to back up your opinion it should greatly strengthen your case.

I consider myself to be pretty 'no-nonsense' too. If when I make the decision to give Joy a correction, I'm not going to be half-hearted or apologetic about it. And by saying that I don't mean that anyone should be really 'hard' or 'rough' with their dog, just firm. I respect Joy to the point that I know I don't need to use a great amount of 'brute force' to make my point. I can be gentle, but still firm. If I know that she understands what I expect from her, then I can feel completely confident that she will learn from her mistake. So if there is one important point that anyone can take away from this, it is that corrections should be done with confidence. If you don't make a big emotional deal out of correcting your dog, then your dog won't make a big deal out of it either.

Having a confident approach to training and having faith in your dog's abilities to make decisions will make in even more likely that the dog will come to the understanding that the unpleasant stimulus occurs as a consequence of its own behavior and that it can control whether it feels unpleasant or not.

Now that I have hopefully established the point that I'm generally not the 'permissive' type of handler. I'm going to share an additional bit of philosophy that I have learned that has really helped me make progress in my training. And that is to avoid frustrating your dog, in other words, set your dog up for success. I know from my own personal experience that it is very hard to learn if you are frustrated! Frustration occurs when the dog has a hard time figuring out what is causing its distress and when they feel like they are being 'controlled' by external forces instead of being personally responsible. Joy became leash reactive in the first place because she just didn't know how to handle the situation and neither did I.

You mentioned something along the lines of when introducing the head halter or harness as a tool to discipline your dog, 'things will get worse' before they get better and that one needs to confidently pull through. This makes me want to ask the question.

How long must my dog suffer through a period of frustration in order to see results?
Well that depends on me of course so I would ask my self,
How can I best communicate with my dog so that she can understand what I want from her?
How do I teach her the 'language' of that tool?

If Joy were to take up a rebellious attitude that would mean that her respect for me has diminished as a result of poor leadership on my part and poor understanding on hers. I don't want Joy to feel like she is 'losing' or 'has no choice but to submit' when I train her but instead I aim to teach her that she is capable of rising up to my challenge. I want to show her a way of behaving in which we can both 'win' in 'real life'. She will make progress and gain in respect for me when she comes to appreciate that I'm showing her 'how to win'. I think the best approach do dog training is to try to really empathize with your dog and see things from their point of view. In other words giving the benefit of the doubt. It makes improving your communication skills easier.
 
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I won't get into a lengthy discussion. I take a long time before typing up a response - considering the problem and wording my response. I am a dog trainer and have been secretary of an obedience club so I am well used to helping people with all sorts of breeds and all sorts of problems. Although I've learnt as much here from Forum members as I have from classes: there are lots of great people here with lots of experiences.

Barking and lunging is one of those problems I see all the time, it's one of the main reasons people turn up to classes and want help training their dogs. Typing up a solution here takes a lot longer than it takes me to show and tell someone in a class and usually it's harder because I can't see the dog. All the advice and information provided on the forum is done for free, and all I can hope for is people will pay it forward and contribute to the SF community from their own experiences.
 
I appreciate your honesty. There is no need for a discussion if there is already plenty of info out there.

I think I'll invest some time reading these forums and watching some videos then. I should find the answers I'm seeking there.

I think I'm doing pretty good with Joy now but, if we find ourselves in a rut again, perhaps we will try something new. I'm just happy that I found a solution that works now. Leash reactivity can be frustrating to deal with and I think Joy was a mild case!
 
Caro and Julianna,
Thanks for all your help and insight and time.
Ok so update on my intractable (sometimes) pup. Having recovered from his injury he was sent to doggy daycare. It seems he is now understanding not to just lie down (at least there) when a dog approaches. One small victory. He stands nicely (next task is to sit) and wait until other dog approaches! So far, so good. We will take this on the road to the park once our snow clears up a bit and see what happens. He is registered for more classes (he has already been to 2 levels at PetSmart which was an ok intro) that start in a few weeks. This time with many more dogs and larger space, so hopefully that will be a good workout and learning environment for both of us.

I still have backyard issues with small furry things--am working hard on that. Can now get him to "find it" with a thrown treat most of the time until his head goes completely wild--a situation I do everything possible to avoid but with unpredictable airplanes, squirrels and bunnies it is not always possible to get him just prior to...when he starts to get reactive, I either cue him "in" and get him inside or actually pick him up and take him in. I have refrained from any lengthy walks for the time being. If I do take him out, I limit it to under 5 minutes or return immediately if his body tenses and his ears prick. I am hoping at the new classes I will get more help on this be able to address it further.

Birds outside continue to improve and he is good up to his threshold. Our inside birds are another story entirely. Even with the desensitizing protocol set-up by the private trainer I hired I can only get him to stay calm a very, very large distance and on a different floor. This is definitely one of the hardest issues. But we keep plugging away at it.

He is doing fantastically at hand targeting, waiting in known environments and continues to do well with automatic sits and attention in the house and yard (yard when not close to threshold). He is so smart and is constantly testing his limits. He finds new ways to get around most everything and I need to put brakes on! But he is my love.
 
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