Beginner Training Issues

[Toffee's Mom]

You and Bailey looked great in that short sequence. Sniffing can be an avoidance mechanism. I agree that she may have gotten spooked by the larger (and louder) number of dogs this week. Just keep working on desensitizing her to the activity of the class environment. We've had our share of the two-steps-forward-one-step back experiences, so I can understand how you're feeling.

Irene, I don't think I would have the patience for shaping. I'm curious how this transitions to trialing. It seems to me that whether you're giving a spoken command or signaling with your body, the dog is taking direction from the handler. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your method, just that I don't really understand it.

lol, actually, me neither, Margaret LOL

Here is what I have learned at the beginning...
I let the dog figure things out, like weaves, jumps... without telling him what to do. THIS is shaping.. he walked through the poles of the jump (without the bar at first) as he walks through I click and reward right at the jump, not from my hands... Then rinse and repeat... A dog is like what just happened that I just got rewarded?? .. He IS going to do it again to achieve the same result without you prompting... This builds value for the JUMP itself not for the obedience of doing what you want... It should build drive, independence and confidence. I believe that way a dog learns to figure things out before getting frustrated (we are still learning this , lol) Once I have a SOLID see a jump/take a jump behaviour I give it a name.. like Jump or Over.

 

[take4roll10]

As to Bailey's focus and drive, first of all, that video is awesome. If you had just posted that, no explanation, I would have said that she looks great, and looks like she really enjoys it. But, you say that she is very different at other times. Are there any differences between when she's "on" and when she is "off"? Is she "off" during simple drills? When she has to wait a long time for her turn? Or, does she have trouble getting started, but once she goes, is excited?

It's hard to tell when she's on and when she's off. I do know that when she was "on" two weeks ago, there was only 2 or 3 other dogs that showed up to class and the class after us was canceled, so there there were no dogs in cars barking. Yesterday, all 8 dogs were in class and there were a lot of dogs in cars barking while waiting for their class. I think all the dogs and people were stressing her out.
We never have to wait for our turn since we are not running a full course yet. The trainer only has us run a small sequence. She'll work with one dog at a time, while the rest of us are practicing the other equipment.
She doesn't have trouble getting started. It's weird. She'll do a jump and be all excited and then the next jump, she'll start sniffing and refuse to jump.

Find out what turns her on (haha). Is it you running? Is it a tunnel? Or, maybe there is a toy (like a ball) that you can use to get her amped up. Reward her by allowing her to chase the ball, just after she goes over the one jump.

She seems to really like tunnels. That was the one thing she had no problem doing. I tried bringing a ball once and she didn't seem interested. I'll bring a toy next week and see if it helps. She does love to play fetch.

It may be time to go back to basics. Try going to back to targetting. Do some restrained recalls, or just build drive by restraining her and letting her get all revved up for the target plate. Do any and everything that gets her excited. Just go up to the agility field (ask if you can go on a night that isn't your class night) and just throw the ball for her near where other dogs are working.

I can only go to the agility field on weekends. I have to find out if I can practice there. I'm not a member of the club yet, so I'm not sure how that works.

I think that right now is too soon to give up and say that Bailey doesn't like it. She may seem stressed, but it seems like once she gets going, her attitude changes. You just have to remind her that every part of agility is like that, even if it's just one jump, or the a-frame.

So I guess the problem is not her. It's really me. I just have to bring my fun voice and make agility seem really exciting again. I'll do my best next week.

 

[Nora]

Working the contacts

With my youngest dog, my instructor had us clicker train the contact behavior before we ever got on a contact. We used a board on the ground, and what we would do was toss a treat over the board (not the length of the board, but the width) to get the dog to go out over the board, then call the dog back, and click the dog when s/he had two on/two off. Once the dog understood two on/two off, we started practicing the behavior at the end of the board, and then at the bottom of the a-frame or dog walk.

BTW, this is also how we trained the teeter, which we added in once the dogs knew the a-frame and dog walk and were doing them regulation height. We'd prop up the tipping end of the teeter so that the other end was a few inches from the ground, and ask for two on/two off. The dogs would push the end to the ground and hop on into the correct position. Then when we propped the end of the teeter, we'd leave it further and further off the ground until they were practically hopping up in the middle to make it tip down. At that point, we started asking them to do the full teeter at a lower height--then raised the height as they gained confidence.

 

[Toffee's Mom]

With my youngest dog, my instructor had us clicker train the contact behavior before we ever got on a contact. We used a board on the ground, and what we would do was toss a treat over the board (not the length of the board, but the width) to get the dog to go out over the board, then call the dog back, and click the dog when s/he had two on/two off. Once the dog understood two on/two off, we started practicing the behavior at the end of the board, and then at the bottom of the a-frame or dog walk.

BTW, this is also how we trained the teeter, which we added in once the dogs knew the a-frame and dog walk and were doing them regulation height. We'd prop up the tipping end of the teeter so that the other end was a few inches from the ground, and ask for two on/two off. The dogs would push the end to the ground and hop on into the correct position. Then when we propped the end of the teeter, we'd leave it further and further off the ground until they were practically hopping up in the middle to make it tip down. At that point, we started asking them to do the full teeter at a lower height--then raised the height as they gained confidence.

YES
this is how we are being taught right now too
Once the 2 o 2o is solid the dog will try to get to that contact come hell or high water... and not be afraid of the obstacle or need to be lured over...
SO much better put than I wrote! Thanks Nora!

 

[ortegah]

Bailey and I just started our 2nd session of beginner 8 week agility classes. Bailey has completely lost focus and drive. We did have an issue a month ago, which I refer to as "the incident." She got spooked and fell off the table. She then refused to do any of the equipment, ran out of the agility field and into the parking lot. When we returned to our next class after "the incident", she was terrified just standing in the parking lot. It took two classes to rebuild her confidence. She is now comfortable on all the equipment again except for the teeter. She is still terrified of the sound and movement.

Yesterday's class was disappointing. She spent most of the time with her nose in the grass looking for food. I even put her in the car alone for 5 minutes as a time out. She has no interest in paying attention to me. I couldn't even get her to sit in front of a jump. A few times, I finally got her to sit and when I released her with "Ok jump", she just stood there staring at me. Sometimes, she would respond to "ok," but then would walk around the jump. The only way I was able to motivate her was to lure her with food into a sit and keep a treat in my hand the whole time.

Any suggestions on how to motivate her and keep her interested in me and not the ground? I don't feed her dinner before class. Maybe I should feed her dinner before hand? Then she won't be starving and searching the ground for food.

There were times in class yesterday, she didn't even seem like was was having fun. She seemed a little stressed. At what point should I suck it up and realize Bailey is not interested in agility, she's not having fun and maybe we should consider throwing in the towel? How do you know your dog doesn't like agility?

Sorry for the long post. I have one more question. I painted a board to look like the teeter. It's just a plan piece of wood. I've been using it to practice 2o2o contacts. I've been placing our target lid at the end of the wood. Bailey walks across it and I say "target" when she gets toward the end. She'll put her paws on the target and jump off, turn around to look at me and then wait for me to get there. I've even tried it with her on leash and she does the same thing. How do I get her to not jump off when she gets to the end and wait there? We have practiced on my stairs numerous times and she does it correctly there. Because of "the incident" setback, I haven't gotten the change to practice 2o2o in class.

Here's a quick video, I got last night of Bailey actually running a small sequence. I had to lure her with a treat to sit and keep the treat in my hand the whole time. She did seem to enjoy this sequence. She does love tunnels.
http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i319/take4roll10/?action=view&current=VID00038.mp4

thanks in advance for any advice! I appreciate it.

At this stage I'd say she needs treats all the time. You need whatever is her top motivation. The only time I don't use treats is when I'm competing. If it's no fun and there's no reward they aren't going to want to do it. You've only begun your second set of classes. It takes a long time to get things down. The biggest thing with these silly Shelties is positive, positive, positive. The incident you speak of can definitely have an effect on Bailey and it takes a long time of slow positive reinforcement to counteract what happened to her.

Stick with it, don't get stressed and even when she does something wrong make it seem like she's the smartest dog in the whole wide world and I bet she'll come around

 

[HopeShelties]

I would bet that the smelling the ground isn't about being hungry and looking for food. It's actually stress. For right now, I would take a step back and simplify things for her. Instead of asking for a lot of structure, which is likely to add to her stress, simply concentrate on making it fun. You may have to talk to your instructor prior to class to discuss this so you aren't being corrected for not doing things exactly as the class is doing them (my trainer Misty gets that on my high stress Aurora).
Don't ask for your sit stay or do a lead out right now. Just run with her. For the time being, I would stop and treat after every obstacle and make a big deal over what she does right, and build value and desire for doing the obstacles for now. Lure if you have to. The important thing now is getting your dog back, not about being able to do everything perfectly. Also, don't correct anything. If she misses something, just go on as if nothing ever happened. You don't want her to know she's wrong. You can also, if she pulls off, just continue running in a small circle and circle her right back around. She won't know she's made a mistake that way. You'll probably need to do some cheerleading with her. I'd also simplify the courses. Instead of asking her to say... do a 15 obstacle course, maybe shorten it to just 4 or 5. Set her up for success by providing her with shorter courses that she's less likely to mess up on. Praise the heck out of her and jackpot her when she does the course and is working happily for you. I'd also keep it short. You may not be able to get her through a whole hour right now. Maybe half an hour or 45 minutes is all she can take. Really watch for signs of stress, and end on a good note. Start paying attention to how long it is before she gets stressed, and start ending before you get to that point. You can always build back up to her handling longer times in class. Don't force anything with her either. There's no sense in forcing an issue and further stressing her out. I would also be using all forward cues with her. As my trainer explains it, your crosses should feel late. Do them once your greenie has landed, and try to avoid doing a lot of cranking down on her.
These are things I have found to help my Aurora. Speed and motivation will come as she regains her confidence. I do private lessons now instead of actual classes (it's more convenient with 6 dogs to run), and I maybe only work Aurora for 20 minutes, and we always stop while she's still having fun and really into it. She's left wanting to come back. This is a dog who was terrified of everything after an incident as a pup. She stresses easily.
You say she's stressed by all of the people and the other dogs barking. I would suggest bringing her crate to class with you, and when she is not working, or while you're walking a course, put her in there. That is her place where she should feel secure, and should be less threatened by the people and other dogs.
For the teeter, would it be possible for you to either make or buy a booja board? With that, she can at home get used to movement, and if you put it on something other than carpet, noise of something banging. You want to start slow... A clicker works well with this. Click and treat for looking at the booja board. Move on to clicking and treating with a foot holding the board still for putting a paw on it. Gradually work up to her getting on it and moving around on it. Then progress to slowly starting to remove your foot and allowing it to move a little. Eventually you will have built a lot of value for the board, and she should happily be getting on and moving around on it to make you give her treats. You may also want to look into Linda Mecklenberg's jungle gym method for progressing to the actual teeter. The booja board really helped my Aurora, and it is how I start all of my young pups now.
Good luck, and I hope some of this helps. Like I say, you may have to discuss things with your trainer, as you are in a class type setting, and what your dog needs most may not be following exactly where the class is going. I've learned with a stressed dog, you sometimes need to modify how you do things, even if the class is doing them differently, as the most important thing is making a stressed dog a happier and more confident dog. Eventually you'll be able to return to working in class like everyone else, but for now it should all be about getting her back.

 

[Hurtseverywhere]

Some great advice here, I think everyone else has pretty much got it covered. Just take it easy with her be patient and she will come around, it might take a bit of time but I am sure she will get over it.

About 6 weeks ago Cosmo got blown off the dog walk by a big gust of wind, luckily I was able to somewhat slow his fall as I was close by, but it sure put him off for a few weeks, and the walk has always been his favorite obstical, he just went totally tepid going up for a few weeks never refusing but you could see it plain as day that he was really leary, but with gentle coaxing and his passion for liver we were able to work through it. Last training session he was right back to normal.
I learned too, Now if its gusty out or even pretty windy, the walk, frame & even teter are off the practice list for the day.

 

[Justicemom]

I have noticed that with each dog whether it is obedience or agility that after training a while they will hit that plateau in training were they don't seem to make any progress and sometimes seem to regress. The key to getting though it is stay calm and don't worry. Reward only the behaviors you want and never reward anything you don't want ie scared behavior, poor effort, poor performance. Look for one small bit you like whether it is just attitude or a small bit of behavior and reward that. Ignore everything else. If you start begging behavior and babying you will get more of the same.

IE Justice, 2 weeks ago was on his 6 wk since returning to agility. We moved inside for the winter and his attitude was so bad. About the right time for a training stall. He was walking or barely running. Contacts bad. Well I forgot about everything else and just focused on attitude. Anytime he ran even 1 step I rewarded. I think I reward about 30 times on a 10 obstacle course one time. Any excitement or animation at all rewarded. Slow dog walk, no reward but kept energy up to next thing and if he burst off fast, reward. Weaves sucked oh well , don't fix it just go on. The next week, he was much faster and I continued rewarding the same things. This week, he did the fastest weaves he has ever done in his life(which was jackpoted and cheered) and was running 90% of the time.

I don't think Bailey looked too bad on the video just keep working and she be back.

 

[k9kreationz]

Everyone had great advice, so I'm only going to touch on one aspect that I may be able to add to....the contact practice and bouncing off. Koji did this all the time.

What all the trainers I knew did was to put "gates" up on the side. i.e. wings. But instead of flaring them out, may them so their walls on the side of the board (so you can run along side if needed). This way, it teaches Bailey that she can't turn.

Start out with them far enough out that the target plate is behind them. Then slowly move them back. Then try removing one and see what happens, then the other. If she keeps bouncing off, put them back up and start where you left off prior to taking them away. Eventually, they should be far enough back, that the target plate, and maybe a foot of the contact zone area is not behind the gates (I guess that'd depend on long she is. Koji is long, so a foot still would deter him from bouncing his backend off. You may need less space).

Anyhow, he seemed to really get it that he has to stay straight. I dunno, but this helped me and this is how I was taught by a few people. Try that. You can use anything tall and flat. I have NADAC gates, you can use jump wings, or anything you can find that would work.

Good luck. Y'know, I know with Koji, when we had to wait around (prior to us starting trialling) he'd be all over the place and crazy. For some reason, once he started trialling, he is more calm in class. Almost like he NOW understands he has to wait his turn. And knows how to focus when needed. Not sure if that's just age though.

 

[take4roll10]

Bailey was a lot better in class yesterday than last week!!!

This past week, I set up a jump in my basement. I clicked and treated every time Bailey jumped over it. I played fetch with her, which forced her to jump over the hurdle to get the ball. I also set up a tunnel in front of the jump, so she had to jump and run through the tunnel. My goal was to make the equipment fun, fun, fun!

In addition, we practiced contacts on my contact board. I used K9kreations' suggestions and made "wings" with a beach bucket and watering can I also placed a treat on the target so when I released her to the board, she immediately did a 2o2o. Then, I treated her for as long as she stayed in that position. It seemed to work and she was starting to grasp the idea.

I decided to feed her 1/3 of her dinner 2 hours before class, so she wouldn't act like a scavenger and look for food the whole time. As soon as we got to class yesterday, I started feeding her while we waited for the class before us to finish. When it was our turn, I ran around the field with her and played fetch for a few minutes. I just wanted to get her really excited about being there. She appeared much more comfortable and confident. She had no problem jumping over jumps, running through tunnels, the dogwalk, A-Frame, etc. She even had a few good 2o2o's. We watched other dogs do the teeter and I kept feeding her to desensitize her to the noise. I even got her to stand on the teeter for a little bit, but as soon as she got far enough where it started to move, she jumped off. I think I'm gonna have to make a moving board for her. She did sniff the ground a little bit, but definitely not as bad as last week. She seemed a lot less fearful and distracted and she was a 1000x more attentive to me.

It makes me so happy to see her enjoying agility! I'll continue what I did last week and hopefully she continues to improve.

On a side note...the two times Bailey has shut down in class (last week and the week of "the incident") were classes my bf attended. I'm sure it's just a coincidence, but I've banned him from attending her classes