Blue Merle x Blue Merle

Hanne · Oct 4, 2015

tesslynn said:
I am of the opinion that there are probably enough breeders, and breeding is serious business, not a pastime and should be left to those really in the know. Too many dogs for the amount of good homes available, so why add to the overpopulation issue? A dog's coat doesn't make the dog any better, it is their personality, their health, their soul & spirit, etc. not the color of their fur. Some are prettier than others, genetics produces some crazy results. You just can't always predict how that DNA will align, why chance that stuff???

As you can say it - right on the spot :yes:

Matsuki · Oct 5, 2015

tofu pup said:
As to breeding your bitch... it's lovely of your friends to pay you the compliment, but unless you are willing to show her, do her health testing, educate yourself about the breed, join a club, find a mentor, risk losing the puppies, risk losing their mother, take time off from work to care for newborns, and turn your house over to screaming, pooping ambulatory puppies for four to six weeks post weaning, please don't.

I am sure that Sansa is a wonderful companion. But unless a breeder/judge/someone who knows the standard well determines that she has outstanding qualities as a Sheltie, she doesn't need to be bred.

Of course, not something to take on lightly.

Lanie · Oct 13, 2015

Hanne said:
A Shetland sheepdog with the color blue merle may not be mated with a sable.

This I didn't know. Echo's Dam is a Sable, her sire is a Blue Merle. There were only 2 puppies in her litter, both Tri. I assume it's allowed in the U.S. She is AKC registered with those 2 parents and was a show dog. I'm guessing that her breeders knew there was no merle on the Dam's side. Both Sire & Dam are their dogs. Very interesting to know.

Silaria · Oct 13, 2015

Hanne said:
A Shetland sheepdog with the color blue merle may not be mated with a sable.

Lanie said:
This I didn't know. Echo's Dam is a Sable, her sire is a Blue Merle. There were only 2 puppies in her litter, both Tri. I assume it's allowed in the U.S. She is AKC registered with those 2 parents and was a show dog. I'm guessing that her breeders knew there was no merle on the Dam's side. Both Sire & Dam are their dogs. Very interesting to know.

Lanie - Sable to Merle breeding is permitted and Sable Merle is an acceptable color (brindle is the only color disqualified outright in the Sheltie Standard I believe) but you rarely see them in the show ring. Why? Because "washed out" color, something you can get with a Sable Merle is a fault so they are very difficult to finish. It's also very difficult to tell a dog is Sable Merle so making the mistake of a Merle->Merle breeding is possible. (This reason is why some countries, like Denmark, ban breeding a Sable to a Merle.)

Calliesmom · Oct 13, 2015

Silaria said:
Lanie - Sable to Merle breeding is permitted and Sable Merle is an acceptable color (brindle is the only color disqualified outright in the Sheltie Standard I believe) but you rarely see them in the show ring. Why? Because "washed out" color, something you can get with a Sable Merle is a fault so they are very difficult to finish. It's also very difficult to tell a dog is Sable Merle so making the mistake of a Merle->Merle breeding is possible. (This reason is why some countries, like Denmark, ban breeding a Sable to a Merle.)

and a lot of sable merles have blue eyes- brown dogs have to have brown eyes to show in AKC conformation....

Cran wouldn't be allowed to show with his one blue eye :wink2:

Cleo2014 · Oct 14, 2015

Calliesmom said:
and a lot of sable merles have blue eyes- brown dogs have to have brown eyes to show in AKC conformation....

Cran wouldn't be allowed to show with his one blue eye

Cleo would not either with her part blue eye... :razz:

Lanie · Oct 14, 2015

Thanks for the clarification. I'd only heard about the Blue Merle to Blue Merle in a conversation with my breeders.

mbfrench · Oct 20, 2015

labgirl said:
Blues merles carry a merle and non-merle gene (Mm), compared to the non-merle dog (mm). Merle colouration is believed to be caused by the Silv gene, which is linked to pigmentation.

Merle dogs in any breed can suffer from slightly raised levels of deafness, compared to normal coloured breeds. A study on blue merle dachshunds, comparing them to non-merle dachshunds, found they had a nearly 9% increased risk of deafness. There is less clear evidence for the increased risk of blindness.

The thing is, no one is quite sure why the Silv gene causes this, though it seems linked with pale pigmentation around the ears and eyes.

Anyway, when you breed merle to merle (Mm) x (Mm), the mating has a 1 in 4, or 25% chance of a pup being a double merle. The litter will produce DMs (MM) along with normal merles and ordinary coloured dogs. (Mm, mm, MM, Mm).

While a double merle can have normal hearing and vision, many will have ear or eye deformities, to the point some have no eyes at all. These pups are often disposed of by the breeders as a consequence of the mating, unless they have really good merle markings, in which case they will be kept for breeding.

Now, as you say, why breed merle to merle, when the risks of a DM are so high? Well, when you have a DM (MM) you can breed them to a non-merle (mm) and guarantee a litter of all merles (Mm).

Does that make it ethical? Absolutely not, but some people want colour over health. Merle to merle breedings cannot be registered with the Kennel Club in the UK, which has largely stopped them occurring (I have yet to come across a UK double merle), though it would not prevent the breeding of merle to merle and a false registration (with a tri or sable parent replacing one merle) being submitted.

In short, it is not the sort of thing I would expect from a breeder who cared deeply about their dogs' health.

Thank you for the enlightening of merle to merle breedings, I am not on here much,and just scanning thru posts.
To the orgiginal post...think twice & and long third time before yo think to breed merle to merle.
I'm an owner of a double merle,that is deaf & blind.

Matsuki · Oct 22, 2015

mbfrench said:
To the orgiginal post...think twice & and long third time before yo think to breed merle to merle.
I'm an owner of a double merle,that is deaf & blind.

Not my intent at all.

Was just shocked that a reputable breeder would do such a thing with such a high likelihood of a double merle pup or two...but it turned out the breeder simply was careless when they copy and pasted info/pics in their mailings. What I thought was the father and mother (in OP) turned out to be the Japan Kennel Club champion father and an example of what she may look like....as their pride and joy Japan Kennel Club champion "Hiro" who is from the same father. The mother is a Tri so there was no Merle to Merle breeding, just a misunderstanding.

Father

Older brother "Hiro"

Lanie · Oct 25, 2015

Matsuki said:
Not my intent at all.

Was just shocked that a reputable breeder would do such a thing with such a high likelihood of a double merle pup or two...but it turned out the breeder simply was careless when they copy and pasted info/pics in their mailings. What I thought was the father and mother (in OP) turned out to be the Japan Kennel Club champion father and an example of what she may look like....as their pride and joy Japan Kennel Club champion "Hiro" who is from the same father. The mother is a Tri so there was no Merle to Merle breeding, just a misunderstanding.

Father

Older brother "Hiro"

I'm kind of glad for this misunderstanding. I learned a lot from this thread :winkgrin: