Jess041
Forums Enthusiast
I think you get to a point where all you can do is agree to disagree and call it a day.
Clicker Training Research
- Thread starter Cazj
- Start date
I think you get to a point where all you can do is agree to disagree and call it a day.
Thank you
Hi
Thank you for all your comments. I am to do a clicker workshop with theory and part of my theory was to do further research (reading ect) and to discuss with peers.
I have found all your comments useful and much ties in with what I have already read through theory notes and accompanying book.
Thank you again.
Caz
Hi
Thank you for all your comments. I am to do a clicker workshop with theory and part of my theory was to do further research (reading ect) and to discuss with peers.
I have found all your comments useful and much ties in with what I have already read through theory notes and accompanying book.
Thank you again.
Caz
It's a shame Mom2Melli you are not continuing on the thread as personally I thought it was a very interesting discussion. I'm sorry that I got rather carried away with some of my replies, 
please be assured they were not intended to be unfair to you or your method of training. I just wanted to (try to) explain the more usual method of doing it and some of the theory. As this thread may be read by people starting out dog training I hoped it might avoid any confusion.
I have not heard of anyone using the clicker as you described but when you explained the process in a bit more detail I could see where you were coming from. I was actually going to ask how you trained a behaviour initially as the description you gave appeared to be relating more to the maintainance of behaviours.
I'm doing an Instructor's course too and actually this thread has really made me think much more about the subject and get it clearer in my mind. Thank you to the OP for starting it.
There are a lot of variations on the way people train dogs (there is a saying I believe that in a roomfull of dog trainers the only agreement will be that they disagree!). IMHO I don't think there is ever a 'right' and 'wrong' way of training (unless a method doesn't work at all) but some techniques and ways of doing things work better than others. Some are more ethical or humane and some may have quicker or more effective results. But no method is ever going to be appropriate with every single situation/dog/owner and if everyone was afraid to do things differently then let's face it, new ways of training dogs would never be discovered!
The clicker is just a box that makes a noise and there is no mandatory obligation to use it, or to use it in a particular way. It is certainly possible to get great results without using one.
I think it would be a shame if this thread ended as it would be good to have more opinions on the subject. A number of people mentioned early on that clicker training hadn't worked for them and it would be fascinating to hear which aspect caused problems and also if anyone had any suggestions for clicker training sound sensitive dogs as that is a frequent issue - especially with herding breeds.
please be assured they were not intended to be unfair to you or your method of training. I just wanted to (try to) explain the more usual method of doing it and some of the theory. As this thread may be read by people starting out dog training I hoped it might avoid any confusion.I have not heard of anyone using the clicker as you described but when you explained the process in a bit more detail I could see where you were coming from. I was actually going to ask how you trained a behaviour initially as the description you gave appeared to be relating more to the maintainance of behaviours.
I'm doing an Instructor's course too and actually this thread has really made me think much more about the subject and get it clearer in my mind. Thank you to the OP for starting it.
There are a lot of variations on the way people train dogs (there is a saying I believe that in a roomfull of dog trainers the only agreement will be that they disagree!). IMHO I don't think there is ever a 'right' and 'wrong' way of training (unless a method doesn't work at all) but some techniques and ways of doing things work better than others. Some are more ethical or humane and some may have quicker or more effective results. But no method is ever going to be appropriate with every single situation/dog/owner and if everyone was afraid to do things differently then let's face it, new ways of training dogs would never be discovered!
The clicker is just a box that makes a noise and there is no mandatory obligation to use it, or to use it in a particular way. It is certainly possible to get great results without using one. I think it would be a shame if this thread ended as it would be good to have more opinions on the subject. A number of people mentioned early on that clicker training hadn't worked for them and it would be fascinating to hear which aspect caused problems and also if anyone had any suggestions for clicker training sound sensitive dogs as that is a frequent issue - especially with herding breeds.
Calliesmom
Moderator
I have only recently started to try the clicker- what I have discovered is my timing sucks.....................
SheltieChe
Forums Sage
Well, if is makes you feel any better people who sign up for chicken camp spend entire first day learning to hold the clicker, feeding bowl with grain and practice their timing and delivery without any birds present. Chicken camp run by Bob Bailey in Sweden used to be over $5 K too...I have only recently started to try the clicker- what I have discovered is my timing sucks.....................
Daisy just announced she will have The Ladies i.e. birds training at her workshops as well, she did all 5 levels of chicken camp with Bob Bailey. I think I want to move to OR
Clicker is a tool and has been used for decades, if you not doing it right just like in obedience, precision shows
I have done some clicker with running AF and DW and find that my click is always late, eye- hand coordination is a biggie. My friend came up with variation of clicker board for this same reason
http://artanddogblog.wordpress.com/...breeze-with-perfectly-timed-clicks-every-rep/
I have not figured yet how to attach mine but am thinking...
Justicemom
Forums Celebrity
It's a shame Mom2Melli you are not continuing on the thread as personally I thought it was a very interesting discussion. I'm sorry that I got rather carried away with some of my replies,
I have not heard of anyone using the clicker as you described but when you explained the process in a bit more detail I could see where you were coming from. I was actually going to ask how you trained a behaviour initially as the description you gave appeared to be relating more to the maintainance of behaviours.
I'm doing an Instructor's course too and actually this thread has really made me think much more about the subject and get it clearer in my mind. Thank you to the OP for starting it.
There are a lot of variations on the way people train dogs (there is a saying I believe that in a roomfull of dog trainers the only agreement will be that they disagree!). IMHO I don't think there is ever a 'right' and 'wrong' way of training (unless a method doesn't work at all) but some techniques and ways of doing things work better than others. Some are more ethical or humane and some may have quicker or more effective results. But no method is ever going to be appropriate with every single situation/dog/owner and if everyone was afraid to do things differently then let's face it, new ways of training dogs would never be discovered!
I think it would be a shame if this thread ended as it would be good to have more opinions on the subject. A number of people mentioned early on that clicker training hadn't worked for them and it would be fascinating to hear which aspect caused problems and also if anyone had any suggestions for clicker training sound sensitive dogs as that is a frequent issue - especially with herding breeds.
I thought it was an interesting discussion. I had not heard of using a clicker in such a manner either and was mulling it over. It is a bit like I do use yes marker when teaching my dogs behavior. It is not a indication of reward but yes you are on the right track keep going. I would not say it is used in the exact same why as a clicker. More like encouragement then an indication of reward coming.
I have trying to use a clicker and Birch was trained with it for many foundation things as a baby. I have a terrible time with pure shaping clicker training. Not because of the dogs but because of me, I am so ADD that I get bored waiting. I tend to use more luring/target training to jump start my behavior. I am great at fading lures so it is generally not an issue. I also seem to have a horrible time keeping track of my clicker.
I think as long as the dog is getting what you are asking and it is done in a humane non negative way, it doesn't matter how it is taught really. That is the great thing about positive training if you mess it up , it just takes longer.
SheltieChe
Forums Sage
I think we are all blessed that dogs are so forgiving and try really hard to please us despite confusing cues...
if we were required to start clicker training with another animal lets say tiger or a lion I bet most people will suddenly develop VERY healthy appreciation for proper technique and timing
if we were required to start clicker training with another animal lets say tiger or a lion I bet most people will suddenly develop VERY healthy appreciation for proper technique and timing
I think we are all blessed that dogs are so forgiving and try really hard to please us despite confusing cues...
if we were required to start clicker training with another animal lets say tiger or a lion I bet most people will suddenly develop VERY healthy appreciation for proper technique and timing
I'm not so sure about this. I think that there is an equally likely chance that we would just have more one armed trainers or far fewer trainers.
But I do agree, our dogs truly are very forgiving.
Justicemom
Forums Celebrity
I think we are all blessed that dogs are so forgiving and try really hard to please us despite confusing cues...
if we were required to start clicker training with another animal lets say tiger or a lion I bet most people will suddenly develop VERY healthy appreciation for proper technique and timing
Thus why I don't train Tigers.
But I have excellent timing, observation and my dogs are rarely confused even though I am not a 100% true on clicker/shaping techinque. That is the great thing about dogs. Lets face it if you have to be 100% on no one would train dogs but a few. Some of the best trainers I know are kids who don't know the rules but the relationship is there spot on.
Thanks for the positive responses. There were just some flippant comments that bothered me. Without knowing what I have done or not done with my dogs since 2002 (and one Persian cat who I taught some tricks to amuse visitors in the showhall and ingratiate the judges) I got barraged including a few rather judgemental statements. I was simply clarifying what I was doing and tried to answer the what-if's you asked. The only statement I flat out disagreed with is that the clicker carries no meaning it is only the treat that matters. The click does carry meaning, as does the word yes, good dog, yay, or whatever you use regularly with your dog. It truly underestimates a dog and the handler/dog relationship to think the only thing that matters is a treat. Not so. Joyous praise and clear feedback are not at all lost on the dog. Love of the sport and self motivation are also present in dogs. It's not all about a treat by a longshot though a treat is a powerful motivator.
What I tried to say mulitiple times is that the clicker work changed as I went along. I felt like I was being jumped from the perspective of point A and point C but only a few people were looking at point B which is where this particular dog was working.
So one more time. This is how I took a dog who understood ONLY sit and down in SPANISH and one hand signal for sit and one for down to entirely skipping basic course to graduate from Intermediate 1 (of 2 offered) last night (YAY MELLI!) in precisely 12 weeks.
First Pre Point A-- I taught the verbal and hand for sit, down, stay, and heel (I was planning on basic class and just sliding on through easy peasy). Then my trainer bumped us to Intermediate 1 since I had just put my other dog through basic and she knew by the time the Intermediate 1 started I would have Melli fully up to par on basic and we might just be troublemakers if we were bored in basic class. Think about it, they let us actually skip a class (loss of money for their business as in no one does any other class without basic -- I call that an honor).
SO -- Point A -- I switched to the clicker. First click and the dog actually left the room. Not ran, just no thank you and waddled off (she's lost 5 pounds in that time too so less waddling now). So the standard protocol - click/treat, click/treat, etc. Free lunch. Then sit/click/treat, down, go to rug, stay, heel/sit etc. All with the standard click/treat immediately. No free lunch. Must work for food. Darn it. No click/treat when wrong, etc. You know the drill because many comments hit this point which was done exactly the way you expected. We did that for a good couple weeks. She knew click meant a treat is coming. Lord knows dog training was like an all-you-can eat click/treat fest. Anyways a click delivered the word YES quickly with no tone, inflection, just YES. One lady in class didn't want to click she said YES. One guy with a Belgian used the word YES in French as all commands were in French. The rest of us clicked and treated IMMEDIATELY.
POINT B - Then I needed to chain KNOWN commands. Not unknown. Ones she already knew with the exception of the come around part on call forward return right. That part was new. So go to rug - down - stay or call foward - sit - come around - return left/right or down from heeling while I kept walking - stay down - until I turned and paused and returned to the heel position. All of these were known already successfully learned sub-tasks. They were being chained at this point. I did indeed click for YES with each step without a treat as most were in-motion or at a distance. The click was positive feedback that she did the right step (which she already knew how to do) and was in the right position for the next command. It also kept the focus. No treat, the exercise was not complete. End of sequence click/treat. This was only a short window, the learning the sequence window.
Then - Point C -- once the sequences were shaped and learned to near mastery or mastery, it went back to WHOLE sequence fluidly with one click/treat at the end. It was a feedback and shaping tool that is no longer needed at Point C which is where some of you were coming from.
Now, by extension, let's say practicing for rally. First the dog has learned each of the cards with a click/treat to mastery individually, in isolation. The learning phase for each task is already done with a click/treat of that skill in isolation one by one multiple times to mastery. This is key, the mastery. Sub-tasks are already learned. Then, chaining several into rally courses could have a click with each station and a click/treat at the end. You can use the clicker during the rally according to the rules I read, or say YES, good dog,etc. At least with Novice. It's feedback. No treat, exercise is still ongoing so stay focused. At the end click/treat. Exercise over. Flub a station, well what would you do in practice? Do that one a couple times and run through again? Yea, same thing. Wouldn't you say YES when that task was done correctly the next time through? Yea, same thing. Click.
Many of you were very concerned about pesky yes - no - yes scenarios. Well, what would you do if you were chaining something? If the step flubbed was not learned to mastery you would teach or reteach in isolation. Chances are in the chaining of KNOWN tasks you would give wait time to self correct or recommand that flubbed part or you would do a whole sequence re-do. You would not be treating or confirming the flubbed part. Same thing. At the end of sequence correctly you would click/treat as I would too. Only I am adding a couple extra clicks during one phase of the training. Once the dog was comfortable running the rally cards in a few different orders, then the need for extra clicks is no longer needed. Just one click/treat or happy dance at the end of the course is good enough. It's Point B (not A or C).
Would they get confused from going from many clicks to one click/treat your fingers have been itching to type? No, the short sequences have sped up during the practice and are done fluidly now so the dog does not need the extra feedback. It already knows the sequence as a whole now. A couple Yes or Good along the way is suitable during dropping the extra clicks. The transition is easy. They are busy thinking on their own at this point (Point C) and no longer need the cues
I have not only dealt with my dogs (and the cat) for all these years, but I taught Jr. High. In teaching, they call it part-to-whole. Teach the parts, chain the parts with feedback, then the whole is worked with. I taught English. When I taught basic essay writing we learned how to do an introduction - body paragraphs - conclusions each in isolation. Then the kids were guided through joining these with guidance and feedback on how to link these very different parts seamlessly and fluidly so they made sense and looked like they belonged together. Then they were out there to write the whole sequence on their own with no feedback except at the end. Believe me, without the feedback stage there would be a whole lot less success on going from part to whole.
In addition, as someone else pointed out, in animal reseach, IF an animal is given a treat EVERY single time for a learned behavior and the treat is withheld the behavior ceases immediately. If the treats come not every time, but they do indeed come, the incentive to do the task increases far more and they try and try again hoping that part is the treat. They actually produce more attention and drive to achieve the task to "win" the treat. Click may mean a treat or wait another task is coming soon and that click might mean a treat. Works mightily well on people too -- casinos are entirely based on the elusive next pull off the slot or next deal of the cards. It apparently applies also to fishermen and the next cast (of which my husband is one).
I know the volumes of reseach you shared and a few of the bolds at me involving "if you click you must treat" and "if you click extra you degrade the meaning of the click". However, my point is try it. Just because Bob and Youtube and this book or that say this or that, try it anyway. In fact, one comment someone put supported what I am saying and they were not vey glad to find I said it did. If your dog is clicker aware. Try it. Is it wrong to say YES more times than once while training or chaining steps into new complex commands? Does it degrade the power of YES to say it more than once during an exercise? A click IS the word YES pure and simple. Go ahead, chain some KNOWN and MASTERED things into a sequence (try sit - down - sit - stand for example). Click with each correct step. Stop and correct if wrong. They will not leap up at you because they didn't get a treat at the click. If they indeed are clicker aware (meaning this is not the first time they have heard a clicker) they will be focused and listening. Click/treat at the end of the sequence. Try it, I dare you. Once mastered, do it faster and more fluidly with only one click/treat at the end. I bet you will be surprised that the clicker can shape behaviors faster during a particular learning phase (Point B). A short-term phase. It will also sharpen your ability to use the clicker more accurately, quickly, and successfully. Keeps you on your toes.
So for everyone thinking I just "got my feelings hurt" and "became emotional" and left the room, no, I just got tired of repeating myself. It had become so piecemeal it was no longer making sense as a whole that people were asking things two and three times. I'm not going to judge you if you click/treat at the end or if you click a few extra times. If you have a system then that is lovely. Clickers are really good tools. So is the word YES or goodgirl/boy. If you coo "good stay" without treating immediately because the sequence is not over or the time is not up or you are 20 feet away, is it any different than a click? Nope. Have you ever said YES after a down while heeling and then commanded the stay and then did your leave your dog/return? Is it any different than a click? Nope.
In any case -- It's nice that you all tried very hard to reeducate me so I won't ruin my dog, but what has worked nicely for MY 3 aussies, sheltie, border-collie-smart McNab x GSD, and a PERSIAN CAT (well, his tasks weren't exactly complicated -- only two steps like turn a circle and lay down or stand up on a person's chest and purr or sit and paw the air) might not be all that wrong. Maybe, just maybe, their learning curve was a little quicker during Point B in the training than click/treat at end with no feedback. Or maybe not. Who knows? Who cares? What's more important is actually working with the dog as a team and the bond being being created, be it verbal, hand gesture, YES, goodgirl/boy, or a foreign language equivalent.
Pix from our final exam:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/...073741860.100002990475842&type=1&l=392ef71e76
What I tried to say mulitiple times is that the clicker work changed as I went along. I felt like I was being jumped from the perspective of point A and point C but only a few people were looking at point B which is where this particular dog was working.
So one more time. This is how I took a dog who understood ONLY sit and down in SPANISH and one hand signal for sit and one for down to entirely skipping basic course to graduate from Intermediate 1 (of 2 offered) last night (YAY MELLI!) in precisely 12 weeks.
First Pre Point A-- I taught the verbal and hand for sit, down, stay, and heel (I was planning on basic class and just sliding on through easy peasy). Then my trainer bumped us to Intermediate 1 since I had just put my other dog through basic and she knew by the time the Intermediate 1 started I would have Melli fully up to par on basic and we might just be troublemakers if we were bored in basic class. Think about it, they let us actually skip a class (loss of money for their business as in no one does any other class without basic -- I call that an honor).
SO -- Point A -- I switched to the clicker. First click and the dog actually left the room. Not ran, just no thank you and waddled off (she's lost 5 pounds in that time too so less waddling now). So the standard protocol - click/treat, click/treat, etc. Free lunch. Then sit/click/treat, down, go to rug, stay, heel/sit etc. All with the standard click/treat immediately. No free lunch. Must work for food. Darn it. No click/treat when wrong, etc. You know the drill because many comments hit this point which was done exactly the way you expected. We did that for a good couple weeks. She knew click meant a treat is coming. Lord knows dog training was like an all-you-can eat click/treat fest. Anyways a click delivered the word YES quickly with no tone, inflection, just YES. One lady in class didn't want to click she said YES. One guy with a Belgian used the word YES in French as all commands were in French. The rest of us clicked and treated IMMEDIATELY.
POINT B - Then I needed to chain KNOWN commands. Not unknown. Ones she already knew with the exception of the come around part on call forward return right. That part was new. So go to rug - down - stay or call foward - sit - come around - return left/right or down from heeling while I kept walking - stay down - until I turned and paused and returned to the heel position. All of these were known already successfully learned sub-tasks. They were being chained at this point. I did indeed click for YES with each step without a treat as most were in-motion or at a distance. The click was positive feedback that she did the right step (which she already knew how to do) and was in the right position for the next command. It also kept the focus. No treat, the exercise was not complete. End of sequence click/treat. This was only a short window, the learning the sequence window.
Then - Point C -- once the sequences were shaped and learned to near mastery or mastery, it went back to WHOLE sequence fluidly with one click/treat at the end. It was a feedback and shaping tool that is no longer needed at Point C which is where some of you were coming from.
Now, by extension, let's say practicing for rally. First the dog has learned each of the cards with a click/treat to mastery individually, in isolation. The learning phase for each task is already done with a click/treat of that skill in isolation one by one multiple times to mastery. This is key, the mastery. Sub-tasks are already learned. Then, chaining several into rally courses could have a click with each station and a click/treat at the end. You can use the clicker during the rally according to the rules I read, or say YES, good dog,etc. At least with Novice. It's feedback. No treat, exercise is still ongoing so stay focused. At the end click/treat. Exercise over. Flub a station, well what would you do in practice? Do that one a couple times and run through again? Yea, same thing. Wouldn't you say YES when that task was done correctly the next time through? Yea, same thing. Click.
Many of you were very concerned about pesky yes - no - yes scenarios. Well, what would you do if you were chaining something? If the step flubbed was not learned to mastery you would teach or reteach in isolation. Chances are in the chaining of KNOWN tasks you would give wait time to self correct or recommand that flubbed part or you would do a whole sequence re-do. You would not be treating or confirming the flubbed part. Same thing. At the end of sequence correctly you would click/treat as I would too. Only I am adding a couple extra clicks during one phase of the training. Once the dog was comfortable running the rally cards in a few different orders, then the need for extra clicks is no longer needed. Just one click/treat or happy dance at the end of the course is good enough. It's Point B (not A or C).
Would they get confused from going from many clicks to one click/treat your fingers have been itching to type? No, the short sequences have sped up during the practice and are done fluidly now so the dog does not need the extra feedback. It already knows the sequence as a whole now. A couple Yes or Good along the way is suitable during dropping the extra clicks. The transition is easy. They are busy thinking on their own at this point (Point C) and no longer need the cues
I have not only dealt with my dogs (and the cat) for all these years, but I taught Jr. High. In teaching, they call it part-to-whole. Teach the parts, chain the parts with feedback, then the whole is worked with. I taught English. When I taught basic essay writing we learned how to do an introduction - body paragraphs - conclusions each in isolation. Then the kids were guided through joining these with guidance and feedback on how to link these very different parts seamlessly and fluidly so they made sense and looked like they belonged together. Then they were out there to write the whole sequence on their own with no feedback except at the end. Believe me, without the feedback stage there would be a whole lot less success on going from part to whole.
In addition, as someone else pointed out, in animal reseach, IF an animal is given a treat EVERY single time for a learned behavior and the treat is withheld the behavior ceases immediately. If the treats come not every time, but they do indeed come, the incentive to do the task increases far more and they try and try again hoping that part is the treat. They actually produce more attention and drive to achieve the task to "win" the treat. Click may mean a treat or wait another task is coming soon and that click might mean a treat. Works mightily well on people too -- casinos are entirely based on the elusive next pull off the slot or next deal of the cards. It apparently applies also to fishermen and the next cast (of which my husband is one).
I know the volumes of reseach you shared and a few of the bolds at me involving "if you click you must treat" and "if you click extra you degrade the meaning of the click". However, my point is try it. Just because Bob and Youtube and this book or that say this or that, try it anyway. In fact, one comment someone put supported what I am saying and they were not vey glad to find I said it did. If your dog is clicker aware. Try it. Is it wrong to say YES more times than once while training or chaining steps into new complex commands? Does it degrade the power of YES to say it more than once during an exercise? A click IS the word YES pure and simple. Go ahead, chain some KNOWN and MASTERED things into a sequence (try sit - down - sit - stand for example). Click with each correct step. Stop and correct if wrong. They will not leap up at you because they didn't get a treat at the click. If they indeed are clicker aware (meaning this is not the first time they have heard a clicker) they will be focused and listening. Click/treat at the end of the sequence. Try it, I dare you. Once mastered, do it faster and more fluidly with only one click/treat at the end. I bet you will be surprised that the clicker can shape behaviors faster during a particular learning phase (Point B). A short-term phase. It will also sharpen your ability to use the clicker more accurately, quickly, and successfully. Keeps you on your toes.
So for everyone thinking I just "got my feelings hurt" and "became emotional" and left the room, no, I just got tired of repeating myself. It had become so piecemeal it was no longer making sense as a whole that people were asking things two and three times. I'm not going to judge you if you click/treat at the end or if you click a few extra times. If you have a system then that is lovely. Clickers are really good tools. So is the word YES or goodgirl/boy. If you coo "good stay" without treating immediately because the sequence is not over or the time is not up or you are 20 feet away, is it any different than a click? Nope. Have you ever said YES after a down while heeling and then commanded the stay and then did your leave your dog/return? Is it any different than a click? Nope.
In any case -- It's nice that you all tried very hard to reeducate me so I won't ruin my dog, but what has worked nicely for MY 3 aussies, sheltie, border-collie-smart McNab x GSD, and a PERSIAN CAT (well, his tasks weren't exactly complicated -- only two steps like turn a circle and lay down or stand up on a person's chest and purr or sit and paw the air) might not be all that wrong. Maybe, just maybe, their learning curve was a little quicker during Point B in the training than click/treat at end with no feedback. Or maybe not. Who knows? Who cares? What's more important is actually working with the dog as a team and the bond being being created, be it verbal, hand gesture, YES, goodgirl/boy, or a foreign language equivalent.
Pix from our final exam:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/...073741860.100002990475842&type=1&l=392ef71e76