Collection

[3Stars]

I wonder if a dog's ability/awareness of collection is directly related to their general body awareness. Starr collects beautifully (in fact, I didn't realize collection was such an issue until I joined an advanced handling class and saw first hand the frustration of owners who couldn't get their dog to collect).

From the time he was young, he's learned to walk backward, circle backwards, weave backward, walk sideways, walk on his hind legs, lift and hold individual paws etc. Reflecting on the difference between Starr and the many dogs I've seen who either can't collect, I feel as if the body awareness he developed as a puppy either helped him develop a natural sense of collection, or it made it much, much easier for him to learn collection.

My bigger question is whether this type of training would help a dog who has no sense of collection, because I suspect it goes to the root of the problem. It would take time to train and develop that body awareness, but I know handlers who have given up on getting their dog to collect - they think it's just not the dog's style. Maybe a few months of body awareness training would be worth it.

Food for thought, I guess.

 

[corbinam]

I wonder if a dog's ability/awareness of collection is directly related to their general body awareness.

My answer to your hypothesis is no, I don't think so.

I think that body awareness is a big help, but it isn't always one to one, like "the dog has body awareness, therefore collects". I think awareness helps the dog to physically collect, but the dog still has to choose to do so, and find that more rewarding than just blasting through in extension.


Again, this is just based on my limited experience--two dogs.

One dog naturally collects. His turns are usually tight and over the side of the bar around the wing. We didn't teach that. In fact, he was my first agility dog and I really didn't teach a lot of foundation work. His trick/clicker training is limited, and we didn't work much body awareness. After his stomach surgery we did some ball work, but he was much worse than his sister. Very wobbily (though we did see marked improvement over time). He is also less motivated and has less drive. He is rarely running full out on a course, even if I get miles ahead of him.

My second dog rarely collects. When she first started agility she almost exclusively powered with her front, and rarely used her rear. We worked really hard on rear end strength and conditioning. And recently we worked a lot of awareness using perch work, backing up, etc... On the ball she is much more in control of her body, and is more likely to attempt to move her back legs individually if I'm shaping something. She will collect if I force her to (standing right next to hear, jump grids, etc...) but if she can find a way around it, she will. She is very drivey, and is usually running at full speed.

 

[3Stars]

She will collect if I force her to (standing right next to hear, jump grids, etc...) but if she can find a way around it, she will.

Wow, that has to be frustrating

Do you cross train her in any sports that are handler-focused, where she can't self reward?

 

[corbinam]

Wow, that has to be frustrating

Do you cross train her in any sports that are handler-focused, where she can't self reward?

Hmm...well we do a little obedience at home (nothing serious), and trick training, if that's what you mean.

We've also dabbled in flyball, but that probably gets categorized as self-rewarding, too.

 

[SheltieChe]

I wonder if a dog's ability/awareness of collection is directly related to their general body awareness. Starr collects beautifully (in fact, I didn't realize collection was such an issue until I joined an advanced handling class and saw first hand the frustration of owners who couldn't get their dog to collect).

From the time he was young, he's learned to walk backward, circle backwards, weave backward, walk sideways, walk on his hind legs, lift and hold individual paws etc. Reflecting on the difference between Starr and the many dogs I've seen who either can't collect, I feel as if the body awareness he developed as a puppy either helped him develop a natural sense of collection, or it made it much, much easier for him to learn collection.

My bigger question is whether this type of training would help a dog who has no sense of collection, because I suspect it goes to the root of the problem. It would take time to train and develop that body awareness, but I know handlers who have given up on getting their dog to collect - they think it's just not the dog's style. Maybe a few months of body awareness training would be worth it.

Food for thought, I guess.

Few things I noticed- both SG and ST teach TONS of body awareness and various tricks, and TONS of agility fundamentals are taught outside of agility equipment. SG posted her new clip on RC which rocked agility world and some not so in pleasant way because Swagger is only 1 year old and clip shows him on full height equipment and such BUT she trained it all outside of equipment and Swagger only had 12 sessions of 5 minutes on full heights- and he is superstar...
SG is planning upcoming contact course which will be 90% taught off any agility equipment.
So I say yes, the thought def has merit.

 

[3Stars]

Hmm...well we do a little obedience at home (nothing serious), and trick training, if that's what you mean.

We've also dabbled in flyball, but that probably gets categorized as self-rewarding, too.

My line of thought is that if a dog has the physical ability and knowledge to collect, then s/he is choosing not to - perhaps because the owner is less valuable than the next jump is.

Starr's main sport is agility, but we cross train in 4 other dogsports. This mix of handler focused (obedience, rally o, freestyle) and obstacle focused (agility, treibball) sports gives him a nice balance in his training - he's focused on me, but works independently.

If Lexi is really driven, you might consider freestyle as a cross training option - it's TONS of fun - our favourite sport. It combines a lot of the traits you look for in agility (focus, body awareness, a combination of physical and verbal cues, collection when jumping, distance work), and keeps the dog's mind very active. She can't self-reward with it - you both must work as a team.

Again, these are just ideas - clearly you're already doing an awesome job with her!

 

[corbinam]

If Lexi is really driven, you might consider freestyle as a cross training option - it's TONS of fun - our favourite sport. It combines a lot of the traits you look for in agility (focus, body awareness, a combination of physical and verbal cues, collection when jumping, distance work), and keeps the dog's mind very active. She can't self-reward with it - you both must work as a team.

Again, these are just ideas - clearly you're already doing an awesome job with her!

Thanks! I'm always open to new suggestions, and new training ideas. Any thoughts on a good resource for things to teach? I admit to not knowing much about freestyle.

The thing is that Lexi is so smart. If we are working on heeling, or some trick that requires handler focus she doesn't take her eyes off of me. She seems to know. It's almost like the obstacles themselves are what throws her into her wild mode.

 

[Phebe*DD]

... It's almost like the obstacles themselves are what throws her into her wild mode.

I can really identify with that!

It really helps Phebe when we practice obedience, i.e., heeling, sit stays and down stays, etc. right next to the ring. We probably spend at least 2/3 of our warm up time at trials doing this right next to the practice jumps. I've found that lots of jump warm-up does more harm than good for us at this point, because of her tendency to get too revved up.

 

[DPSheltie]

Thanks! I'm always open to new suggestions, and new training ideas. Any thoughts on a good resource for things to teach? I admit to not knowing much about freestyle.

The thing is that Lexi is so smart. If we are working on heeling, or some trick that requires handler focus she doesn't take her eyes off of me. She seems to know. It's almost like the obstacles themselves are what throws her into her wild mode.

Lexi sounds just like Riley. We do Rally and some novice comp. obedience classes him. In those classes he is very controlled and has great handler focus. However, put him near agility equipment and he completely loses all handler focus. The equipment is so much more rewarding than I am, so he flies around (and over) everything. Lots of self rewarding behavior in agility class for Riley