Difficulty of AKC Invitational Courses

First, I guess I never would have ended up with the dog on my left (unless he broke his stay). i.e I wouldn't FC nor push hard after the weaves. I'd end up with the dog in the weaves on my right side, simple left hand turn to #4.
Are you saying that you'd lead out past #2? If so, how do you get Koji to go into the tunnel which is in the opposite direction of where you are so you can be on the other side of that jump and have your dog on your right in the weaves. The only way I could do that would be if I crossed behind at the weaves. But Trax is crazy fast and even if I was 7' tall, my legs wouldn't move fast enough to get to the other side of that jump in time.

And if I got in position correctly, I'd be btwn dog and 15 while heading to 4. Now, granted I don't usually see starts like that in AKC (again, why not?) but have seen it in NADAC a lot, so maybe I'm just more used to it, regardless of how crappy Koji's stay is.

If you take out 11 and 12 and you have an average Ex course (in my area). Take out 1 or move it and you have an Open course. Take out 1 and maybe 2 and you have a Novice course. That's why I don't think this one is that difficult. I expected the Invitationals to look more like Rounds 2, 3 and 5. Now THAT IMHO, is difficult for any dog.
But those obstacles aren't taken out, and you could say that about any course really. So many Excellent courses are only different from their Open course by one dummy jump and there's a whole lot more here than just one dummy jump that you'd have to take out.
Again, I didn't mean that for every dog and size this is an absolute simple course. Sharon made a remark about the courses being easy.....because I have said they are, so I responded with my two cents.

I looked at the course from the perspective of someone who's dog is super fast. If my dog was super fast, I would have made sure to build in distance too. If you have to run with a dog at this level, by his side, w/o any distance, you're amazing (Daisy does this and she is amazing).

This is how I would handle the area you spoke of if I had a fast dog (but since I don't, it's all just theoretical - I try to figure how others will handle it just so I can learn different ways to do things with diff dogs - and usually I'm right about the "best" way). I'm sure by the time I hit 9, i'd be behind the dog, so I'd let them take 10 and turn to go to 11 (I would hope if I had a fast dog, I'd also have turn cues, but I'm not using them in this).
Not everyone's fast dog is like that. Trax in particular checks in with me every step of the way even though he's super fast, he never gets too far ahead so I have to be with him. It's not something I can train out of him, it's just his personality. And I'd be WAY behind Trax in that sequence which is why I go to the gym and run sprints LOL!

As they head to 11, I'd run to stand btwn 10 and 13 to get them to grab 12 (pull them to me - and call them off of 9 or anything out there). I'd support 13 and 14 with my body/arm, but also get in position to FC btwn 14 and 15. No RC btwn anything over there. I shouldn't have to move too much afterwards as it's a "straight" line to the end (meaning, no weird/hard turns).

With Koji, since I don't have a ton of distance, I'd probably RC 10 and pinwheel him to 12 and then 13 (i'm sure I'd have to call his name to keep him tight on 10-11). I'd RC 13 to grab 14. He'd be on my right by then, so I'd RC 16 to pull him to 17. Like I said, if I was faster than Koji, I would probably do more FC's or move further away and pull him through. In fact, I probably would try it and if I fail, I fail. But if I for sure want to be clean, I'd do it this way.

So, this course (round 1) IMHO, is a joke for those that went to the Invitational. It's not a novice course, but I felt it should have been on par with the other rounds (minus the hybrid course). That say, "invitational" to me.

Now answer me this, if I removed 11 and 12, would the course still be "difficult" in your opinion?

I also hope that made sense. Its hard to explain.

Sorry it took so long for me to respond. I don't have my own computer at home right now so answering on a phone is tough. I wanted to wait til I got into work today ;)
 
No way! Even if I sent her to the tunnel from far away, allowing me to get into position on the other side of jump 2, it wouldn't give her enough information to get into the weaves (she'd probably still see me hauling to get into position). And even if she didn't see me accelerating, I don't think I'd be able to give her enough information to get her to collect to make the turn.

Hahaha! Ah, got it. I'm not sure where she's at, so I thought I'd ask.
 
20qqs with 750 points isnt luck. Even if it takes 10 years and hundreds of trials, on those 20 occasions the dog and handler were working as a team, and were able to be not only perfect, but fast enough twice in one day 20 times to earn their mach. Perfection is not luck.
No mach is dirty. You may get a gimme every once in a while (judge missed a blown contact, or an off course, or a missed weave pole). You may have an ugly run that you eek a q out of anyway... but for the majority of the time, it takes skill to achieve it.
A mach is something earned, something achieved, and when a team manages the requirements to get one, it should be celebrated, as regardless of what others may think, for each and every dog that gets one, a lot of hard work by both dog and handler have been put in to get there.

Like I said (or if I didn't say, I meant it), I personally do not want to obtain a MACH because I trialed for 10 years every weekend and got it. I want it because I put the hard work of training and retraining (especially since I'm a first timer, with a first timer dog). But that's me. I don't ever look down on people with MACH's even if they're horrible teams. I am proud that they stuck it out and happy for them that they got that far.

But for myself
, I am never happy with a dirty Q and I won't be happy with a dirty/paid MACH.
 
Akc

Like I said (or if I didn't say, I meant it), I personally do not want to obtain a MACH because I trialed for 10 years every weekend and got it. I want it because I put the hard work of training and retraining (especially since I'm a first timer, with a first timer dog). But that's me. I don't ever look down on people with MACH's even if they're horrible teams. I am proud that they stuck it out and happy for them that they got that far.

But for myself
, I am never happy with a dirty Q and I won't be happy with a dirty/paid MACH.

Sorry no such thing as a "Dirty MACH".:eek2:
 
Like I said (or if I didn't say, I meant it), I personally do not want to obtain a MACH because I trialed for 10 years every weekend and got it. I want it because I put the hard work of training and retraining (especially since I'm a first timer, with a first timer dog). But that's me. I don't ever look down on people with MACH's even if they're horrible teams. I am proud that they stuck it out and happy for them that they got that far.

But for myself
, I am never happy with a dirty Q and I won't be happy with a dirty/paid MACH.

You can always refuse a Q that you don't think you earned.

As for me, we have yet to get Q that I didn't earn, so if I ever get one, I'll keep it to replace the 3 I've missed because of bad calls that the judge even admitted were bad calls, but didn't reverse their call. If you trial long enough, it usually evens out.
 
(1) did you train your dog for these challenges or were you doing what your instructor led a class through?

We trained for them...since the beginning (well, as soon as they were far enough along for them). The same as you would train for serps.

You're correct, it is rare if ever that a domestic (non-ISC) AKC course contains these challenges. Well some are tighter than others & you should have seen 180s, and even some 270s - they do appear in CA.

Nope, never seen a 180, much less a 270.

(2) I don't say AKC is easy, but I have said previously that AKC courses do tend to follow a predictable formula. In other parts of the country I have heard opinions that that is not the case there, but I have also heard it from other handlers from other various parts of the country. Perhaps it is the lack of creativity and variety that has you bored with AKC?

It could be. Like I said, it is the same thing every time I trial. Go up out and around, switch back, come in and round, one more switch back to the end. That's the course. Very flowy (which is nice), but yeah that's about it.

(3) Your dog is not slow, but as a team you do show the inconsistency of a beginner team (regardless of what level you are competing at). Your course runs don't always flow cleanly, your cues are often unclear or late, and I see a lack of consistency in handling that if improved might allow Koji to run with more confidence and speed than he does.

I'm not offended by what you wrote and I'm assuming you're pointing this out because I feel AKC is easy, but yet, I'm not a good handler. I would agree on both counts. So there you go. If I can half-you-know-what a course as a beginner handler, with late cues, no trust in my dog, no consistency, etc and Q away to Excellent B.....are these courses really testing my "abilities"? I feel they aren't. If I was so novice then I shouldn't Q at all. Lastly, ITA that I'm a "beginner". This is my first dog, I don't train as much as most of the people on this board, nor people I see at trials. Am I inconsistent, yes. Does Koji save my butt half the time? Yes. And I'm grateful and know exactly when he does.


(4) I also suggest figuring out course strategies that will work better than they appear to be for you at this point, but more so being able to adjust more readily when things dont go the way you thought they would.

And this is when I contradict everything you said up top. A lot of my runs are planned wonderfully, even including alternatives if needed due to Koji. However, many times, I trust he'll take this, or that (he may not due to me, but still), and I have to adjust my plan. In one of my more recent JWW runs, I did a RC on the flat and I was laughing a I was going around the jump instead of going in front of it. I knew I made an error and Koji went wide, but whatevers, I knew my mistake but we did what I wanted anyways.

Let's put it this way. A woman once told me that she loves watching me run Koji. NOT because we're awesome, but because she seems me laughing and talking to him during the run. She knows I'm laughing because I screwed something up, she knows I'm talking to him, because I could simply be running to the end and saying "thank you for listening". Is it stupid and could cause issues, yes. Are we having fun, you betcha! And that's why I don't stress over my bad handling mistakes. Yes, I try to fix them, yes I work on them. I will never be a top handler and don't strive to be (unless I win the lottery). But for now, I am extremely happy with our connection when we run and how far we have come since I started trialing back in Nov 2009.

It isn't clear what your handling system is if you follow one, but I'd guess you've been exposed more to a Greg Derret set of rules than anything else.

I started with Derret, but have since decided my system is what works for Koji. Derret's system works for dogs that are like Derrets. Even top handlers don't follow one specific handling system.

If NADAC was your first venue then that experience may also be a contributory factor.

Not sure how that makes a difference.

You mentioned Daisy, but the description of how you'd think you'd handle the invitational standard course suggests you haven't applied much thought to how an APHS team would cue obstacles, or for that matter what direction to run.

She recently introduced me to the APHS system. I was very intrigued and liked a lot about it. I don't know jack about it though. But have recently bought the Linda M. DVD set and hope to learn more. Since I'm not in "beginner agility" classes, they don't focus on handling systems anymore.

At the very least try to handle more consistently regardless of your preferred handling style so you and Koji can become a better *team*.

I feel I handle as consistently as I can during the run. Again, if things go awry, I have to think on my feet. That doesn't always mean I can do a correct "style" at that point. Many times it's do what I can to get back on track. I'll be honest, there's no way I can fully do Derret or APHS. I don't agree with everything both sides talk about. I also cannot physically do what both sides discuss (although, Daisy pushed me to the limit). So again, my consistency comes from what works for me and Koji. I know what he excels at and where he'll falls apart at. And I handle accordingly and push him on his bad end side, ditto for me.

[\quote]This observers perspective is given with good intentions - I know how important it can be to feel successful, so I won't rehash any of the training discussions because I see you are taking steps to improve there.[/QUOTE]

NP. ITA with just about all of it. We ARE a beginner team. We need more consistency and training. But again, my whole point is.....if we're not that good, why are we in ExB? Has it truly been "all luck"?
 
Are you saying that you'd lead out past #2? If so, how do you get Koji to go into the tunnel which is in the opposite direction of where you are so you can be on the other side of that jump and have your dog on your right in the weaves. The only way I could do that would be if I crossed behind at the weaves. But Trax is crazy fast and even if I was 7' tall, my legs wouldn't move fast enough to get to the other side of that jump in time.

Does no one train for this sort of thing? I'm curious because we trained for it. If I set Koji up, in front of 1, looking into the tunnel. As long as I'm facing that same direction, when I release him, he's supposed to go in that direction. Isn't that what you guys train? Take the obstacle in front of you no matter where I am unless I say otherwise?

We had a course like this and all the people I trained with or trained at the same facility with, we all handled it this way. All the dogs went into the tunnel. Yes, some had to stand closer to their dogs (like me), others didn't. So I know it's not just me. maybe it was just my training facility. Is it a Derret thing? I have no clue. Sorry, it's just something we trained for, so although Koji can't really do it (due to me and our velcro-ness), I just assumed more experienced dogs could.


But those obstacles aren't taken out, and you could say that about any course really. So many Excellent courses are only different from their Open course by one dummy jump and there's a whole lot more here than just one dummy jump that you'd have to take out.

I know this is going to come off badly and I apologize in advance. I said IF you take those out THEN what you have is an AVERAGE course (where I am). I did NOT say it's the same course and that makes it easy. Please don't take things out of context. When I wrote it, I was talking about what "average" courses look like in my area. And even if you left those jumps in....I still don't think it's super hard. 180s aren't difficult. They're basically a pinwheel and everyone has agreed that pinwheels are easy.

Not everyone's fast dog is like that. Trax in particular checks in with me every step of the way even though he's super fast, he never gets too far ahead so I have to be with him. It's not something I can train out of him, it's just his personality. And I'd be WAY behind Trax in that sequence which is why I go to the gym and run sprints LOL!

Koji is like that and according to everyone, you CAN train it. So, I'm just repeating it....."It takes two sides to have a velcro dog". I totally believe you, but like I said, it's what I've been told. "you need to train it, and trust him more", but Koji will probably forever check in with me (maybe cuz they're related? :P)


Sorry it took so long for me to respond. I don't have my own computer at home right now so answering on a phone is tough. I wanted to wait til I got into work today ;)

No problem. :) It's also why I haven't responded. Actually, I think my computer may have died at home. Ugh!
 
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