Difficulty of AKC Invitational Courses

[danisgoat]

Would you like me to split the other thread so all of the course discussion posts are on this thread?

 

[k9kreationz]

Are you looking at the same first course that I'm looking at? Round 1 is in no way a joke. I've never seen a front cross/hard push after weaves in a novice course(2 to 3 to 4). I would've done a rear cross at the weaves for that matter and that's definitely NOT a novice technique. Also there's 2 180's back to back (10 to 11 to 12 and 13 to 14). Those are both things that for a fast dog(and I would hope that all the dogs at this event were considered fast) they would be difficult to pull off. Not to mention after finishing 14, I would have to do a rear cross somewhere around 15 and probably at 16 as well. It's not the most difficult course in the world but it definitely is an excellent level course.

First, I guess I never would have ended up with the dog on my left (unless he broke his stay). i.e I wouldn't FC nor push hard after the weaves. I'd end up with the dog in the weaves on my right side, simple left hand turn to #4. And if I got in position correctly, I'd be btwn dog and 15 while heading to 4. Now, granted I don't usually see starts like that in AKC (again, why not?) but have seen it in NADAC a lot, so maybe I'm just more used to it, regardless of how crappy Koji's stay is.

If you take out 11 and 12 and you have an average Ex course (in my area). Take out 1 or move it and you have an Open course. Take out 1 and maybe 2 and you have a Novice course. That's why I don't think this one is that difficult. I expected the Invitationals to look more like Rounds 2, 3 and 5. Now THAT IMHO, is difficult for any dog.

Again, I didn't mean that for every dog and size this is an absolute simple course. Sharon made a remark about the courses being easy.....because I have said they are, so I responded with my two cents.

I looked at the course from the perspective of someone who's dog is super fast. If my dog was super fast, I would have made sure to build in distance too. If you have to run with a dog at this level, by his side, w/o any distance, you're amazing (Daisy does this and she is amazing).

This is how I would handle the area you spoke of if I had a fast dog (but since I don't, it's all just theoretical - I try to figure how others will handle it just so I can learn different ways to do things with diff dogs - and usually I'm right about the "best" way). I'm sure by the time I hit 9, i'd be behind the dog, so I'd let them take 10 and turn to go to 11 (I would hope if I had a fast dog, I'd also have turn cues, but I'm not using them in this). As they head to 11, I'd run to stand btwn 10 and 13 to get them to grab 12 (pull them to me - and call them off of 9 or anything out there). I'd support 13 and 14 with my body/arm, but also get in position to FC btwn 14 and 15. No RC btwn anything over there. I shouldn't have to move too much afterwards as it's a "straight" line to the end (meaning, no weird/hard turns).

With Koji, since I don't have a ton of distance, I'd probably RC 10 and pinwheel him to 12 and then 13 (i'm sure I'd have to call his name to keep him tight on 10-11). I'd RC 13 to grab 14. He'd be on my right by then, so I'd RC 16 to pull him to 17. Like I said, if I was faster than Koji, I would probably do more FC's or move further away and pull him through. In fact, I probably would try it and if I fail, I fail. But if I for sure want to be clean, I'd do it this way.

So, this course (round 1) IMHO, is a joke for those that went to the Invitational. It's not a novice course, but I felt it should have been on par with the other rounds (minus the hybrid course). That say, "invitational" to me.

Now answer me this, if I removed 11 and 12, would the course still be "difficult" in your opinion?

I also hope that made sense. Its hard to explain.

 

[k9kreationz]

Would you like me to split the other thread so all of the course discussion posts are on this thread?

If you think that's best, then great. I just didnt' want it to get way OT of the high's and low's of the Invitational.

 

[Sealtainn]

If you have to run with a dog at this level, by his side, w/o any distance, you're amazing (Daisy does this and she is amazing).

I've never seen Daisy run a sheltie

 

[danisgoat]

If you think that's best, then great. I just didnt' want it to get way OT of the high's and low's of the Invitational.

OK, it is done.

This will make the flow a bit better, except for the first post that you started for this thread is now post number 9. I am not sure how to move that one up to the top to start this thread.

Carry on

 

[k9kreationz]

I've never seen Daisy run a sheltie

Oh hush, she runs BC's, I know that. But she's the one who said, "I don't train distance because I run with my dog...." (or something very close to that and I think a lot of our mouths dropped cuz we know her dogs can be fast).

 

[k9kreationz]

OK, it is done.

This will make the flow a bit better, except for the first post that you started for this thread is now post number 9. I am not sure how to move that one up to the top to start this thread.

Carry on

LOL. I'm sure it's posted by date/time that's why. Thanks Ms. Mod.

 

[HopeShelties]

How would you end up pushing to the weaves with the dog on right? The only way that tends to work is with an extremely sloooow dog who you can beat down the line and get around two prior to the dog getting there to get the dog into the weaves without needing a rc at the beginning or fc at the end. Also, why do the rc at 16? Again, unless it is a slow dog, getting around 15 ahead of the dog for the push would be difficult. If 15 were in quite a bit more, or 16 were more kicked out, it could be a more viable option, but with the location of 15, it doesn't seem like a good option unless it is a slow dog.
For me, the course would be pull to weaves, fc at the end of the weaves. At 9, I'd be on the left, rc, move into the take off side of 11, then fc on the landing side of 12. I'd immediately start moving laterally, allowing my dog to take 13 and 14 as I met them on the landing side of 14. From there, it would be just run like hell through to the end.
I do think it is a trickier course for a big dog than a 8, 12, or 16" dog (depends on your 16" dog though). For a big dog, making the weave entry could be more difficult (for a long jumping dog to collect and make the turn to the weaves). Also, without a stopped contact at the teeter with a fast big moving dog, it could be difficult to be ahead to make the push back out after 5. It may not look difficult at first, but pay attention to the line from the teeter to #5 and then #6. Many will want to curl in instead of pushing out after 5 because of the line that is set from the teeter to 5. Many of the big dog people also wouldn't be there for a fc on the landing side of 14, so would need to rc at 15, and would need to watch that their dog wasn't jumping long, as a big jumping bc or dobe, while it may look obvious to us, might very well go around 16, depending on how truly severe an angle it is on course. Let's not forget coming out of the weaves that a big fast dog may very well continue going straight and take 14.
I think while it may not be as difficult as some of the other courses, it definitely does have its' subtle challenges.
I do agree with what ortegah had to say, that the hybrid course does appear to be the easiest. I think the biggest challenge on it was 12 to 13, with 14 being closer in distance than 13.
I think the whole I don't train distance bit comes from the APHS. I know my trainer has always said she doesn't train distance, and says Jenn doesn't either.

 

[k9kreationz]

How would you end up pushing to the weaves with the dog on right? The only way that tends to work is with an extremely sloooow dog who you can beat down the line and get around two prior to the dog getting there to get the dog into the weaves without needing a rc at the beginning or fc at the end.

If I set up Koji facing into the tunnel, I can lead out to the landing side of 2. I can release, he'll go into the tunnel, I can do a FC or push. I had this as a run in Aug. I failed it miserably due to my bad handling and unsure about his lead-out so I didn't go for it. But I saw a ton of people set up their dogs like that and get behind 2 before any speed dog came ripping out of the tunnel and you FC/push to the weaves so they're on the right. I don't see how that is difficult for a 16" dog.

At the trial, a LOT of people failed because they'd try to race their dog to get in their FC. But they also would start next to the dog to get them in the tunnel. Those that could send the dog to the tunnel and FC/push behind 2, did it very well (me excluding, lol).

Also, why do the rc at 16? Again, unless it is a slow dog, getting around 15 ahead of the dog for the push would be difficult. If 15 were in quite a bit more, or 16 were more kicked out, it could be a more viable option, but with the location of 15, it doesn't seem like a good option unless it is a slow dog.

I'm assuming you're talking about the part where I'd run Koji. And if that's correct, then it's not the same as running a dog who'd make it to Invitationals. So no reasoning is really required because it's my middle of the road 16" dog.

I do think it is a trickier course for a big dog than a 8, 12, or 16" dog (depends on your 16" dog though).

I'd agree. But then again, I also think any bigger dog running rounds, 2, 3 and 5 would be a whole other ballgame of "here, come, and name calling" to pull them off of things. Well, more so than the 8-12-16 dogs...maybe.

I think while it may not be as difficult as some of the other courses, it definitely does have its' subtle challenges.

As does any course. And different challenges for different people, dogs, and sizes. I just felt Round 1 was too easy for Invitational levels as it's something close to what I'd see at a trial. This is supposed to be the elite of the elite. They shouldn't be running courses that I'd see any other day. That, or we should be running courses in Excellent, like that of Rounds, 2, 3 and 5.

 

[k9kreationz]

Just for comparisons. Here's a course map from Marq Cheek from last Nov. I was barely in Open so this was crazy difficult to me. Look at all those pinwheels.

I haven't seen anything like this since I moved up to Excellent. And never saw anything like that again in Open. Although it was hard, I am bummed I haven't gotten to do more difficult things like crazy pinwheels, backside jumping, threadles, 180s, 240s, etc.

Am I the only crazy one who wants all those things in a course?