Fixing startline issues.

[seashel]

I'm sorry for putting on yet another long post about Epic's agility but I'm hoping that in explaining how I analysed and worked through our problems it might help someone else who is having similar issues.
It would be great if anyone wants to add/comment on this. Shelties can be anxious about this aspect of agility so it would be great to know how other people have dealt with it.

Just as a recap, this is Epic at the start a couple of weeks ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qyP_rBk--k
It does look even worse than it was, but it wasn't at all good. Epic is clicker trained and I have never, ever pushed him into positions. Except at the start of agility runs both in training and competing when I have been concerned about keeping people waiting/wasting time.
This is not a one off, regrettably. I have usually edited out the messing around at the start on my videos to make them shorter and sometimes there was no problem and he set up quite well. I have never known quite how to enter the ring. To start off I carried him in under my arm, but he wasn't awfully keen on that. Then progressed to walking in with a hand on his collar - not much better.

The next day I resolved to run with him from the start as I often do in training - no bothersome waits for us! Luckily all the courses were such that I could do this easily and it made a lot of difference in the start, even when I carried him in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmAivu0m-t8

But this isn't really solving the issue. I have given Epic a rest from obstacle based agility training over the last couple of weeks and in the meantime pondered on what to do about the start.

I looked at the process of queuing and how to improve there. Solution was returning to taking along some treats and doing a few HTM moves and warm ups shortly before going in the ring to build up focus, rather than on throwing his toy which is good for raising the excitement but not so much for thinking and engagement.

The next step was when we are ready to go in. When to take off the harness and how to get Epic safely and positively to the start. This seemed to be one of the bigger issues when I thought about it because it appeared to be the time between undressing and starting the run where the stress was developing. Solution was to take the harness off at the last possible minute and once off - no hands on my dog. The HTM and tricks right up to the front of the queue had him focussed and once the harness was off I saved one last treat for the moment before we walked into the ring. His attention was on me and he was still happy and keen.

Finally the wait itself. It was clear when I really gave it some thought that the physical requirement of sitting was the main place where things were breaking down. I have really done a lot of high value reinforcement training on the sit and wait and he can hold a super solid sit in the face of all kinds of distractions. But going into the sit has never been fast or keen. Actually as I'm writing this it occurs to me that I have used sit as a control position specifically to reduce arousal e.g. in the Control Unleashed 'Look at That' training he generally sits to go below threshold. Sits are therefore not something which he anticipates with keen focus and enthusiasm! Solution was ditch the sit. I considered substituting a down, same problem though. I thought of occasions where he is keenly waiting for something and realised that he just sort of crouches and pauses.

Looking over videos of Crufts and the WAC I noticed that a lot of handlers were not fanatical about an obedience type stay and 'creeping' was accepted. This looked like it heightened the dog's anticipation and enthusiasm.

Solution appeared to be for me to 'break' the solid sit stay that I had perfected so proudly. To see if lowering my criteria made a difference. Did it ever! I tried a couple of times in the garden with his toy just saying 'wait', or even nothing at all but using a sort of 'holding back' hand signal (which I don't think I have ever trained). To my surprise, this worked like a dream. He paused, sometimes moved forward a bit but he remained steady, attentive and clearly poised for action. I tried this at class a few hours later on the start. Again it worked!

This weekend we had a two day show. Here, under the pressure of competition was the real test of my theory.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9tcmmwa-bE
It wasn't a long lead out because it didn't need to be but the difference is really marked from the first clip taken two weeks before. Epic is actually choosing to lower into a sit, just as I release him but the choice is his.

So to summarise - I tried to identify which aspects of the starting process were causing issues as well as thinking about what behaviour Epic did naturally when he was keenly waiting for something to happen. I have replaced the requirement for a steady rock solid sit in favour of letting him chose how he wishes to prepare himself in anticipation of the run, with the only criteria being that he doesn't actually start the course without the release. I think this has really worked well for him because he only has to do one thing on cue and that is release. Not worrying about a whole lot of behaviour which he doesn't like doing anyway has made him far more confident, I'm more confident and all the negativity around startlines has gone!


PS Just to clarify I am doing some traditional training to maintain this now i.e. varying the outcome so he does not get released over a jump/forward all the time. I am absolutely not using any non reward markers or verbal corrections - I want this to be a 100% positive exercise for him. So far he hasn't actually 'gone wrong' by prematurely anticipating the release, which is rather encouraging, but if this happens I'll just ignore it, set him up again and reinforce with some backwards/sideways/me by his side repetitions.

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

This is what differentiates obedience handlers from agility handlers, and where you can really tell what dogs have impulse control issues.

I don't generally have any start line stay issues. My dogs break on occasion, and on those occasions they are picked up and removed from the fun. Period. But its not often.

Second. I walk the dog into the ring, put them in heel position, take off the leash, and tell them to wait. It's likely that I have been doing some basic obedience outside the ring to get my dog to focus (because she does have impulse control problems). So walking in under control and swinging to heel for a start line stay is just a continuation of what we were doing a minute ago. This means it's not special, it's not something to stress over, it's just part of the exercise.

At no time, ever, will we be tugging, playing or swinging my dog around to get her arousal level up. That's a recipe for disaster.

I also give a strong "wait" command, and I lead off with my right foot (ala obedience). I don't diddle around with positioning the dog, or trying to set them up perfectly. If she wants to stand, I let her. As long as those feet stay where they were when I left.

Walk in, sit, wait, OK.

With my new dog, agility is the boring thing he does. So waiting on a start line is like no big deal. In real life, he has to stay for his sheep. Makes agility training super easy!

 

[labgirl]

A very interesting post Julia, and I am glad to see you have found a way to overcome those startline issues. I see so many dogs in training and competition that are sternly put into a sit wait and then just go completely flat (not saying that was you, by the way). At the moment I am sticking with a running start with Merlin as it is what he needs, his issue is losing confidence when left alone.

With Sparrow I taught her 'start' which is going between my legs and sitting and waiting. She loves that game and so a startline wait for her is no issue, at training at least. We shall see what happens when she starts competing

At the end of the day it is what works best for the dog. Though sit or down waits are ideal, no one says you 'have' to have them. I have seen top level competitors who have running starts, or just ask the dog to hold a stand.

 

[Silaria]

I'm going to preface this with the fact that I haven't watched the videos yet, they are blocked on the system I'm currently using.

Back when I started training Edan in agility we drilled startline stays in class - put the dog in a sit-stay, take a few steps away, go back and reward the stay, rinse/lather/repeat until you were able to do a two or three obstacle lead out.

That was great in class but when we got to our first trial he wouldn't sit and I'd get frustrated with trying to get him into one. One of the instructors at my club offered me the best advice after the third class of the day... pick your battles with your dog. If he won't sit, fine, do a stand-stay as long as he stays. Ever since then Edan has a stand-stay at the start line. If he offers a sit, great but I don't ask him for one. I don't know if KC shows require the dog to sit or down at the startline. If they don't require either position, then I really would just focus on the stay and not worry about the position.

As for going in and out of the ring, most of the venues in the US require the dog to be on leash as they enter and exit the ring. (I can only think of 1 off the top of my head that doesn't require that.) I am not familiar with KC rules so I don't know if you are allowed the leash on the dog when you go to the startline or not though I can't imagine why it wouldn't be permitted.

 

[seashel]

Thank you for all your responses everyone, they were very interesting to read, especially as it seems we have all arrived at more or less the same conclusion - sits are not essential.

I just don't think sit is that natural a position for a dog to adopt when in high anticipation of action. I was watching some people on the field today playing ball with their dogs and without exception, the dogs were standing while waiting for the throw. They were not 100% completely stationary but they were not breaking and running for the ball before it was thrown, they were holding themselves steady in anticipation. When I was playing with Angus I saw that he also adopted the same 'freeze crouch'.

I have been thinking about this some more and you are spot on Rachael. There is a world of difference between obedience and agility handling and the startline wait is an issue of impulse control for the dog, whereas an obedience wait or stay is about the handler dictating and controlling the action. I can think of it like a long bow vs a cross bow, the agility wait should be like the long bow where the dog is holding itself in tension and the release is the reward for having self control. The obedience wait/stay is more like a cross bow because the dog is locked in place by training...does that make any sense at all?!

Angus has no stay at all right now and I'm really, really glad that I've been forced to revaluate because I am shortly going to be training a startline wait with him and now I'm am going to set about doing this completely differently.
My rough plan is going to be to capture that 'freeze crouch' behaviour (with the clicker) and put it on cue. It seems a lot more logical now to work with what the dog is hardwired to do and the reinforcement is kind of built in to it, rather than a means to an end. It will be interesting to see how this turns out in practice.

We don't have strict lead rules. The lead comes off at the point when you are the next to run and is handed to the lead runner (along with all your other paraphernalia such as the dog's toy,hats, coats, camera case etc!!) Some people take the lead off literally moments before they start the run. Others take it off well in advance. I often do lead running and would say that most people take the lead off before the dog technically enters the ring - but then our rings are only delineated by a piece of rope at most shows so there's not such a clear boundary.