Calliesmom
Moderator
yes- you get an actual certificate.
I'll see if I can dig one of them up and scan to post.....
Flyer visits the herding lessons
- Thread starter 2GoodDogs
- Start date
yes- you get an actual certificate.
I'll see if I can dig one of them up and scan to post.....
Calliesmom
Moderator
scan of certificate with names removed to protect the innocent
2GoodDogs
Forums Enthusiast
Yup, will be looking for an AKC Instinct test soon. The corgi club had one last weekend, but not only was I engaged elsewhere... one of the snooty corgi folks said Flyer was too young to be on AKC Herding grounds.
He's gotten pretty good as masquerading as a 6 month old, probably because he's big for his age.
He's gotten pretty good as masquerading as a 6 month old, probably because he's big for his age.
While I doubt that I will have an interest at any point in becoming involved with Herding, I have found the various threads (and videos) posted on SN very interesting. A couple comments in this thread particularly piqued my interest. I would appreciate it if someone here who participates in Herding activities would explain a couple of conundrums to me:
(1)
Question: Are training and competitions usually conducted only with sheep that have been exposed to dogs before? It would seem to me (a Herding outsider) that a certificate program that didn't include working "non-broke sheep" at least the upper certification levels might be of questionable value. (However, I can understand why using sheep experienced with dog interation would be important with a novice/beginning dog).
Question: I understand limiting participation to dogs of a certain age (growth plate issues, etc.), but where in the AKC regs. does it address the age of dogs "on the grounds"? Perhaps I'm reading the comment incorrectly.
(1)
Question: Are training and competitions usually conducted only with sheep that have been exposed to dogs before? It would seem to me (a Herding outsider) that a certificate program that didn't include working "non-broke sheep" at least the upper certification levels might be of questionable value. (However, I can understand why using sheep experienced with dog interation would be important with a novice/beginning dog).
Question: I understand limiting participation to dogs of a certain age (growth plate issues, etc.), but where in the AKC regs. does it address the age of dogs "on the grounds"? Perhaps I'm reading the comment incorrectly.
Calliesmom
Moderator
Dog-broke sheep are used to working with a dog and moving away from it. the sheep that were used for this test were ewes that had recently had lambs and only interacted with a guardian dog. the club hosting the test doesn't have people who herd so they just rented some sheep from some nearby person.
we haven't actually been to any herding competitions (except Sheltie Nationals) so I don't really know how it works at the advanced levels.
All AKC trials limit the age of dogs on the grounds - I believe to prevent puppy selling at events and exposure of the puppies to who knows what. the minimum age was always 6 months- that is the youngest class for conformation showing. Now that conformation has beginner puppy 4-6 months, you can have 4 month puppies there. A lot of clubs restrict the dogs to only dogs entered which can be problematic for a multi-dog person that doesn't enter all the dogs.
Calliesmom:
Thanks for the response. Your answer tells me that I wasn't missing something in my original assumptions. I would love for someone to chime in who has knowledge with the higher levels of Herding. Like I said, I can understand the importance of using "dog broke" sheep at the mid/lower levels of participation (I see that as a bit of a safety issue while a dog is learning his/her craft so to speak. A younger untrained dog would be less likely to know how to react to a sheep that resisted being herded.) But, if that holds true at the upper levels of Herding, using only "dog broke" sheep would seem somewhat counter productive.
I can see some logic in the age thing.
Calliesmom
Moderator
Dog-broke sheep are used at all levels......
testing are the beginning levels of herding
trials are the more advanced levels
From the AKC Herding Regulations:
A. The Committee must ensure that the stock are of such suitability as to provide uniform workability at all levels.
Suitable livestock used for testing is healthy, noncombative (docile) and accustomed to being worked by loose-eyed, upstanding breeds. Livestock for testing must flock (group) easily and be accustomed (in the case of the fetching dog) to approaching the handler as soon as the dog gets behind them or (in the case of the driving dog) willing to move away from the handler. It is preferable that test stock be easily moved but not flighty or excessively light. Orientation to the handler should be reliable.
B. The Committee must ensure that the stock are of such suitability as to provide uniform workability at all levels.
Livestock used for trials should be healthy and accustomed to being worked by loose-eyed, upstanding breeds. Trial livestock should flock adequately when pressured by the dog and be accustomed to approaching and being handled by people. They should not be knee huggers and should accept driving as easily as fetching. Trial stock should be dog broke but
not course trained, although they should be reliably familiar with obstacles and their negotiation. Trial stock should be pliable and maneuverable enough to permit a trial dog to show its natural ability and instinct to read and direct the stock.
Stock for the Started and Intermediate levels should be of the same workability as that which is provided for the Advanced level.
Calliesmom: Thanks for the appropriate regs. As I read through them, there was something (that I first couldn't put my finger on) that still didn't make much sense to me in those regs. I think I have now figured it out. In my (uninitiated) mind, the end game for training/competition like Herding is to turn out dogs that could (not necessarily would) be prepared to actually perform in the real world. As such, it seems reasonable to me that untrained (IE non dog broke) sheep should be introduced at some level. Clearly, what's missing in my thought process is that (at least as far as the AKC training is concerned), competition is the only issue, so uniformity is a greater concern than complete preparation of a dog for actual working ability (it is therefore easier to compare dog to dog for scoring purposes). Thanks again. I think I get it now.
ClantyreSheltie
Forums Sage
AKC trials almost exclusively use dog-broke stock. Yes, we have Herding Champions that are "trial dogs", meaning they can do the course, but not get stock out of the parking lot. We have venues where the stock is so course-trained that the dogs just have to be vaguely in the right place for the stock to put themselves through the course. It's especially funny if/when a judge decides to reverse the course. But then we have a lot of venues that just have good, honest sheep that will do what the dog tells them (though when people don't qualify, it always seems to be the fault of the stock…)
USBCHA (Unites States Border Collie Handlers Association) and ISDS (International Sheepdog Society) will host some trials and their National Finals on non dog-broke stock. Cattle is apparently particularly difficult to work when they get them off the range.
I just went to the World Sheepdog finals in Tain, Scotland. The sheep there were not broke the first day. They had been hanging out in a field, minding their own business, having probably only seen a dog once a year for shearing and care, and only then in large groups. By day four, they were a little bit wiser to the dogs, but I still wouldn't call them "dog broke".
For low level testing, you really do want dog broke sheep, and good ones. We don't want sheep panicking or charging or doing something to a young dog that will turn them off. But then you also want a tester (human) that won't allow the sheep to go after a dog. We call them "test sheep" and they will do as the dog asks while being very tolerant of young dogs and inexperienced handlers. The idea isn't to terrify someone into never coming back. The idea is to get them addicted.
USBCHA (Unites States Border Collie Handlers Association) and ISDS (International Sheepdog Society) will host some trials and their National Finals on non dog-broke stock. Cattle is apparently particularly difficult to work when they get them off the range.
I just went to the World Sheepdog finals in Tain, Scotland. The sheep there were not broke the first day. They had been hanging out in a field, minding their own business, having probably only seen a dog once a year for shearing and care, and only then in large groups. By day four, they were a little bit wiser to the dogs, but I still wouldn't call them "dog broke".
For low level testing, you really do want dog broke sheep, and good ones. We don't want sheep panicking or charging or doing something to a young dog that will turn them off. But then you also want a tester (human) that won't allow the sheep to go after a dog. We call them "test sheep" and they will do as the dog asks while being very tolerant of young dogs and inexperienced handlers. The idea isn't to terrify someone into never coming back. The idea is to get them addicted.
ClantyreSheltie:
Thank you. The picture is beginning to get a bit clearer for me now. People like myself who don't know a lot about "Dog Organizations" may often forget that there are scads of groups that sanction the various dog activities. I now more clearly understand the whole "non broke dog" issue. It seems from your description that there are indeed groups that see the value of dogs being able to work livestock that is just a little less amiable than the image I got initially (at least at some levels).
I particularly appreciated the last paragraph of your response. It was a very concise description of the necessity for sheep of varying levels of "sass" (to use a decidedly un-dog term). I hope I have not monopolized too much of the thread's resources with mundane questions, but this was just an area that I needed cleared up before I got even more lost.