SheltieChe
Forums Sage
dog can't assert dominance! Dogs don't have abstract thinking!!!!!!!!!!!
I understand you copied this page from somewhere but beware of the sources. It is hopelessly outdated.
HELP!!!! growling, snarling, snapping ????
- Thread starter anaruadh
- Start date
I understand you copied this page from somewhere but beware of the sources. It is hopelessly outdated.
PreciousSheltie
Forums Enthusiast
Is it outdated? I've never had any problems with dominance in any of my dogs in my life time, so I can't say it is or it isnt. I just figured things like that, if they do or don't, was purely based on different peoples opinion. Just like those that like Cesar Millan and do not. I think it's all opinion. And yes, it is something sourced, but I don't think it was terrible to read. If Anna wants to omit that in to things to consider, I figure its her choice to choose what to take away, its not for me to say what is or isn't, I'm not an expert. Also, I simply copied and pasted the whole part of the months explanation so it didnt seem choppy. It's just to give her the understanding that it isn't just a problem with Luna. That every dog generally goes through this kind of an adolescent stage and to just to encourage to keep up with the training was the end point. Not the topic of dominance.
Last edited:
BarbV
Forums Celebrity
This is such a complicated subject.
When my dogs are outside their turf, they are mostly curious and friendly with other dogs. Never aggressive. They seem to recognize that they are in "no man's land" and observe the protocol.
In his own space, Indy "protects" his fence whenever someone walks by, but he is worse with a few dogs, because their owners don't respect "Indy's space" either and let their dogs wander up to him. He goes nuts when certain dogs walk by.
I try to correct him on this, and its a work in progress. There are really only two dogs now that drive him wild. Both are lab or lab mixes that their owners let run free in front of my fence. They don't correct their dog either. One of the owners carries a walking stick like he is the Dog Whisperer. He walks by with his dog loose, swinging his stick and never looking left or right. One of these days, I'm going to take him|!
We'll do Ninja in the back 40!
Bacca is alot better, but funnily enough, if Indy is inside, Bacca will protect the fence in Indy's absence - against the same dogs.
When my dogs are outside their turf, they are mostly curious and friendly with other dogs. Never aggressive. They seem to recognize that they are in "no man's land" and observe the protocol.
In his own space, Indy "protects" his fence whenever someone walks by, but he is worse with a few dogs, because their owners don't respect "Indy's space" either and let their dogs wander up to him. He goes nuts when certain dogs walk by.
I try to correct him on this, and its a work in progress. There are really only two dogs now that drive him wild. Both are lab or lab mixes that their owners let run free in front of my fence. They don't correct their dog either. One of the owners carries a walking stick like he is the Dog Whisperer. He walks by with his dog loose, swinging his stick and never looking left or right. One of these days, I'm going to take him|!
We'll do Ninja in the back 40!Bacca is alot better, but funnily enough, if Indy is inside, Bacca will protect the fence in Indy's absence - against the same dogs.
SheltieChe
Forums Sage
sorry for yelling, dominance theory is sore subject with me.
WHat I understand happened is initial study was done many years ago on wolves in captivity and only at certain times, like at resource centers or dens because technology was not advanced enough to actually follow wolves except microchipping them....results were very biased and that is how they come up with these ideas of being alpha, pack leaders etc.
now there is modern research and several books actually came out on wolves study which totally disprove previous conclusions.
So dogs really do not try to assert dominance over new family member or children. Dogs lack verbal skills or abstract thinking, they can not generalize well and very concrete in their thoughts like " this is safe" : "this is danger". Dogs unable to understand concepts like present and future.
Dogs as opposed to wolves are really solitary animals and never form packs in the wild, i.e. when you see feral village dogs in some countries there is never a alpha leader, but gathering of loosely connected scavengers around food resource. As opposite wolves do create family unit with parents and children. Children disperse on their own once they ready to create their own family. But in general there is more and more tendency to step away from this erroneous "lest study wolves so we know about dogs " idea. You don't go to prison to study human behavior and then generalize it on whole society, you don't study zebra to know how horse will behave.
Just as humans are related to monkeys by their DNA but have different outside presentation , same is with dogs and wolves, they are different species and should be treated as such.
Now to return to actual topic posted....
WHat I understand happened is initial study was done many years ago on wolves in captivity and only at certain times, like at resource centers or dens because technology was not advanced enough to actually follow wolves except microchipping them....results were very biased and that is how they come up with these ideas of being alpha, pack leaders etc.
now there is modern research and several books actually came out on wolves study which totally disprove previous conclusions.
So dogs really do not try to assert dominance over new family member or children. Dogs lack verbal skills or abstract thinking, they can not generalize well and very concrete in their thoughts like " this is safe" : "this is danger". Dogs unable to understand concepts like present and future.
Dogs as opposed to wolves are really solitary animals and never form packs in the wild, i.e. when you see feral village dogs in some countries there is never a alpha leader, but gathering of loosely connected scavengers around food resource. As opposite wolves do create family unit with parents and children. Children disperse on their own once they ready to create their own family. But in general there is more and more tendency to step away from this erroneous "lest study wolves so we know about dogs " idea. You don't go to prison to study human behavior and then generalize it on whole society, you don't study zebra to know how horse will behave.
Just as humans are related to monkeys by their DNA but have different outside presentation , same is with dogs and wolves, they are different species and should be treated as such.
Now to return to actual topic posted....
Justicemom
Forums Celebrity
I agree and disagree. Dr Ian Dunbar studied for over a decade the social behavior of dogs and found they do have a very complex social heiracrhy. But the "Alpha" was not the one running around and causing issues he was the one who was the cool costumer than rarely has to do anything but give a look. The male heirarchy is fairly ridged and set once the males reach maturity and the female is slightly more fluid changing with situations and the females flow up and down within the male heirarchy depending on the day. It is quite interesting really. 8hr DVD seminar if your interested. http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB897
But and here is the big but-it has nothing to do with dog -humans social relationship or dog training. Humans are not dogs and dogs don't see us as dogs. Thus is the flaw in the dominance theory of dog training.
Dr Ian Dunbar's blog says it better then I .
http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/lets-just-be-humans-training-dogs
SheltieChe
Forums Sage
I was not aware until recently but apparently wolves have very low testosterone levels during most of the year and only have rise during Dec- Feb when they mate, such allows them to have family units and live together peacefully. Dogs in unaltered state are full of testosterone year around so it is totally different kitchen... dogs are social with human but not with other dogs so they tolerate each other to their best ability which can def create all kinds of situations.
Caro
Moderator
I think you need to remember she is a puppy and doing what puppies do - testing the world. Your job is to teach her how you want her to behave. There are a couple of things going on at this stage. One is her adult teeth are growing in, so yes she could be a bit sore and grumpy. The other is she may be hitting her second fear stage.
With the lab - I think that is perfectly fine she told him to back off. A young bouncy lab can be dangerous around a small sheltie and can do some unintentional damage if he lands on luna. You might like the lab but Luna doesn't have to - if you want her to play with other pups maybe find one thats smaller. But don't stress that point, she didn't go at him, she just told him in doggy language to back off. Have a look at this thread and doggy language - esp the Suzanne Clothier article Tofupup refers to http://www.sheltieforums.com/showthread.php?t=11243&highlight=suzanne&page=2
If the other growling has come immediately after she may be thinking this is how she should react if she doesn't like something. (Of course she could also have been playing by growling at the brush) Your options are:. Treats and rewards for good behaviour - such as when she is being calm while grooming. If she starts to growl a firm no and put her on the floor and ignore her.
Losing confidence is a bigger problem. Its something that can happen at that age. My Tully had the same problem at the same age and a behaviourist wrongly diagnosed dominance issues - which ended up doing a lot of damage. There are things you can do to help. New experiences should be short and fun, lots of exercise, doing obedience training (even if at home) and the NILIF program should help if you treat it as a learning/training thing and not a punishment. Also try to set her up for success and lots of praise and positive reinforcement. Also, one of the big things that helped Tully overcome her shyness was learning and playing fetch.
I have a distinct dislike of the term small dog syndrome. Laying behind the barking is always something - usually fear. At this age Luna is very maleable and there is no reason she should grow into a fearful adult.
With the lab - I think that is perfectly fine she told him to back off. A young bouncy lab can be dangerous around a small sheltie and can do some unintentional damage if he lands on luna. You might like the lab but Luna doesn't have to - if you want her to play with other pups maybe find one thats smaller. But don't stress that point, she didn't go at him, she just told him in doggy language to back off. Have a look at this thread and doggy language - esp the Suzanne Clothier article Tofupup refers to http://www.sheltieforums.com/showthread.php?t=11243&highlight=suzanne&page=2
If the other growling has come immediately after she may be thinking this is how she should react if she doesn't like something. (Of course she could also have been playing by growling at the brush) Your options are:. Treats and rewards for good behaviour - such as when she is being calm while grooming. If she starts to growl a firm no and put her on the floor and ignore her.
Losing confidence is a bigger problem. Its something that can happen at that age. My Tully had the same problem at the same age and a behaviourist wrongly diagnosed dominance issues - which ended up doing a lot of damage. There are things you can do to help. New experiences should be short and fun, lots of exercise, doing obedience training (even if at home) and the NILIF program should help if you treat it as a learning/training thing and not a punishment. Also try to set her up for success and lots of praise and positive reinforcement. Also, one of the big things that helped Tully overcome her shyness was learning and playing fetch.
I have a distinct dislike of the term small dog syndrome. Laying behind the barking is always something - usually fear. At this age Luna is very maleable and there is no reason she should grow into a fearful adult.