How fast things can change (agility performance)

Personally, the only time I would do away with a start line stay would be with a dog that is demotivated by it. One of my instructors has a mini Aussie that runs the entire course slow if she has to come off the line by herself. So Donna does a running start or a very short lead out with her and has made it to MACH 3 with Icy.

Dogs that refuse to stay at the start line will blow you off in other situations, as well. I think that the broken start lines may be feeding into the contact problems you're having.

If it were me, and the trials I had entered in April hadn't closed yet, I would pull the entries. You can use that $$ for private lessons and/or gas to get to a trainer who can help you.
 
Cheryl I am so sorry that your having such a hard time with Koji.

I don't have any experience with agility as I have not trialed long enough to have things break down but I have tons experience with it in obedience. Jstice went though 2 major training issues the first with his sit stays where he would lay down on the out of sight sits(NQ) a couple times after I had only taking 2 steps. It lasted 6 months. The second with scent articles, he won't bring the metal article back even though he would indicate it. It last 4 months. Both issues only occur at trials. At the time of sit stay issue, he already had his UOCH, Can OTCH and needed only 1 leg for his UDX and when the article issue occur he was 5 combined legs from his UGOCH and 2 legs from his UDX2. It was SO frustrating because I knew he knew what to do and wasn't doing it.

Things I learned:
1) stop trialing- I kept trialing with the sit stay and it got worse and worse. For the point that it was 30 secs before I would return to right after I had left and was still in the ring. He laid down in every Open run for 6 months.:(

2) go back and break the exercise down like you are just starting to teach it. Reward small steps and build it back up. It doesn't take as long because they know what to do it just messed up in their minds. Have what behavior you want in mind and reward only that do not accept close enough behaviors from even the beginning of your reteaching.

3) Proof- once you have retaught the behavior vary your behavior so that the dog learns to pay attention. So for example with a stay. I would leave walk a few steps and go back and reward, leave at a run instead of a walk. Go out and do jumping jacks, play with a toy or ball, play with another dog, acts like you are going to call them , lower your shoulders, jerk, wave your arms. Anything you can think of to test that stay. If they stay reward(in agility let him run), if they break replace them. I don't use any corrects other then replacing them. I don't want them stressing out but I don't want them to decide they don't have to stay, go or stop what they are doing when I don't want them to..

4)When you do start trialing again, don't stress over them not doing something. You trained hard, let what happens happen. I used to get so mad(internally) when Justice would lay down and that added to his stress about doing the exercise. Seemed everytime I worried about Justice not doing something, he would do the very thing I was worried about. I learned alot of these issues that occur only at trials is due to stress and we are doing something to change our handling and confusing the dog or the dog is feeling extra pressure from us to preform and its freaking them out. Fun matches or run and dones are great places to see how you are doing without actually trailing. Treat them like a real trail but you can train if something goes amiss.

5) Get physical problems rule out. Both of these issues started with Justice as physical problems. First he had thrown out his lower back and sitting hurt. CHiropractor fixed it but the aviodance/learned behavior remained because he had been left to practice it without conquences so long at a trial. Second time it was a tooth issue and the metal hurt. Again learned he didn't have to pick up the metal article because I let him "get away with it" In practice if he brought the wrong one I would have sent him back for the right one. In a trial I didn't so the behavior continued.

I hope this helps. I know its not agility but training is training. Behaviors breakdown the same.
 
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I can just imagine how frustrating it would be. I lookedat some of your videos from before, what a difference. I haven't been here long enough to know your training style. Maybe he feels incontrol or something like that. I'm sure things will work out in time, but as I am experencing now, waiting isn't always fun. :(
 
SO sorry you're experiencing this, with little Koji!
I really like Dr Shelli's explanation, it sounds like something I would want to explore... Breaking it down again.

Once I am trialing I have a trainer that I will go to for individual help when I am coming across problems.. (like his dainty dainty nose touch, still.. sigh)

I am learning so much from all the people around me and you guys...
I seriously haven't begun to trial yet, because I feel I am not ready, you should see me getting lost on the course in class, I will mess up at trial, lol..

SO I am raising MY critiera for myself and Toffee's to get a more solid 2o2 before I really trial. I have also committed to myself that I will make training decision on the course IN trial... so if he breaks his start stay or pops out of the weaves he is going to do it again, even if it will costs me the Q's, lol
I will tell ya'll how I am doing, once I am actually in it all, LOL :rolleyes2:
 
Until the contact is higher than 50% at home, I wouldn't ask him to do it at a trial. He needs to be able to be successful doing that at home regularly and truly understand the criteria before being asked to do it in such a highly charged environment.
As far as the start line stay, you've already gotten some good suggestions after I posted. Outside of those, I would take him to show n gos at other facilities (since he's good at home) and make him hold a stay, and once his contacts have a higher percentage of success, I'd proof them at the show n gos as well. You may also try getting him really wired up when you're practicing and then asking for a start line stay.
At actual trials, if you're doing some in the near future, I'd do as Ashley said and slingshot him. No reason to further reward him breaking when you already know he isn't going to hold the stay.
I really don't think many dogs get it when they're hauled off course. They don't connect the fun ending very well with what they've done wrong.
As far as a better trainer, I mean if you're having issues in class being with a trainer who can help you through the issues, and offer good solutions that are working. Private lessons, if you can afford them with a good trainer, are a fantastic investment because you really can get so much more personal attention, and work on what you and your dog need as opposed to just a generic class agenda.
As far as being too keyed up at the trial, have you thought about trying Control Unleashed with him? You could also do obedience outside the ring prior to running. There's also the option of wearing him out a notch or two before running to take the edge off. Take him for a jog the morning of a trial, or at the trial if there is a long wait before your run. Or run him in agility the night before.
 
Dr. Shelli, that is a wonderful breakdown and very appropriate for agility training or ANY training - including basic behaviors for a well mannered dog.

Cheryl, I know its hard to consider not trialing for a while because we all have goals and objectives.

I learned alot of these issues that occur only at trials is due to stress and we are doing something to change our handling and confusing the dog or the dog is feeling extra pressure from us to preform and its freaking them out. Fun matches or run and dones are great places to see how you are doing without actually trailing. Treat them like a real trail but you can train if something goes amiss.

I have to agree with this. I've learned recently that EVERY TIME we get close to a title, where I go in knowing I can EARN IT at the very trial I'm going to, I put extra stress on myself to make 100% sure I leave with the title. I forget its about playing with Edan and enjoying our time together.

What I end up doing is struggling. Runs that normally we'd have no issue with end up being disasters. Edan picks up on my extra stress and he shuts down. When there is no title on the line, we run GREAT together.

Cheryl, you've said a few times - you are competitive and you want titles on Koji; you want the MACH. When you step into a trial ring, even subconsciously, these thoughts are reflected in SOMETHING you are projecting and Koji is picking up on it.

This could very well explain why he's not giving you the same bad performance in practice. Practice does not equal Trial. No Qs are at stake in practice; no titles. The result is a calmer you and a calmer Koji.

This doesn't make you a bad trainer! I do the same thing when I get close to titles.

Perhaps one thing we both need to learn, train OURSELVES, is how to control our competitive nature so we don't project stress onto our dogs in an already stressful situation.

You still need to go back and retrain/proof the things Koji has been allowed to get away with. While you are doing that, take time to consider what you need to do to train yourself, emotionally, as well.
 
Ring wise dogs

I'm about to share a little info from a Stuart lecture that I went to called ring wise dogs...I have a longer, more detailed write up that I'll email you (and anyone else if they PM me)...

Ringwise dog = Dog whose performance changes in a competition situation (usually for the worst) compared to what is an expected norm.

Really there is no such thing as a “ring wise” dog. A dog merely responds to variable criteria, reward, response on behavior by the handler (this has been taught!)

You have to compare the causes of the differences (there are several...consider rewards, attitude, inadvertent training, conditioning, lack of basic skills, teaching vs. helping, to name a few) and find a solution that works to address the causes.



I've found that our dogs seem to pick up quickly when we are training and when we are trialing. Just this past month I've put in place a rule where we warm the dogs up EXACTLY the same before every practice session and trial. Sounds simple...but it's hard to keep up with. We put their leashes on and head to the practice jump (one at a time). They work a short sequence (figure eights, etc...) and then we either tug to keep interacting or work short obedience work (sits, downs, etc...) They then get walked to the beginning of the exercise or course and asked to sit, and their leashes come off.

I know that you can't always exactly set up a scenario that feels just like a trial. But, if you give your dogs a routine in which to feel comfortable, they will relax and feel comfort in that habit.
 
Teaching start line stays is no different than teaching obedience stays, and I think a lot of people just kind of glaze over that. Since I do both, my dogs have always had the stay from obedience simply applied to agility. With River, I am doing agility first, and his stay is not nearly as good as the others. I really need to buckle down and teach it.

But since I also don't teach contacts, my dogs don't stress over them at all, and there is no regression. They have no idea that it's "special" or something to worry over. They just do it. Only twice has Liesl missed a contact, and River hasn't missed one in competition yet.
 
Agility Performance

Teaching start line stays is no different than teaching obedience stays, and I think a lot of people just kind of glaze over that. Since I do both, my dogs have always had the stay from obedience simply applied to agility. With River, I am doing agility first, and his stay is not nearly as good as the others. I really need to buckle down and teach it.

But since I also don't teach contacts, my dogs don't stress over them at all, and there is no regression. They have no idea that it's "special" or something to worry over. They just do it. Only twice has Liesl missed a contact, and River hasn't missed one in competition yet.

How do you not train contacts in agility?My dogs dont stress at all about contacts.They dont stress at all in the ring.They have fun.
 
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