Measurement Standards

corbinam said:
(I promise this isn't me being a sourpuss--I have no personal vendetta or real-life experience that has drawn me to the below observations/suggestions. Rather it's my personal belief in "the rules apply to everyone" and desire to achieve efficiency in all aspects of my life!)...

"the rules are there for a reason"!!!!
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DISCLAIMER: Emphasis, color change and exclamation points are mine. Plus, I know next to nothing about the topic. But I truly love this discussion. :lol:

That being said, I agree with Corbinam. Having rules and routinely and systematically allowing rules to be subverted, perverted and/or skirted is (in my mind) an indication of the weakness of leadership. My guess is that most dog organizations started the way many religions in man's history started. Someone became disenchanted (read that as ticked off) with the organization they belong to... They become so ticked off... I mean disenchanted... that they pull off and start their own little group. Then, the new group falls into the same lax rules governance as the original group. Why? Because it sooner or later becomes about those in charge and no longer about the dogs, the competition and improving the organization.

Like I said, I don't know much about this topic, but I want to know more and I will be waiting with baited breath for each ensuing comment.
 
ClantyreSheltie said:
And remember that shoulder layback makes a huge difference. I have a dog who measures 16 1/2 inches. I have another dog, OBVIOUSLY larger than him, who also measures 16 1/2 inches. There is no comparison. People are sure the larger one is almost 18. Nope. He's actually got some of the best shoulders I've had hands on, so he measures smaller than he looks.
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Yep Diva had the best layback I have ever felt on a sheltie. She was 13.5" and looked big. She was standing beside a cocker who measured 15" and her owner could not believe Diva was that much shorter. The cocker had stick straight shoulders that were under her ears. One judge when he measured her went to feel for her shoulders and move his hand back 3" from her neck. His comment was "whoa".
 
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they could measure the Nadac way- PVC wickets for each height cutoff- U shaped PVC that is placed over the dog's shoulders- standing on the ground usually- if it doesn't touch the ground, then the dog is not in that height class. so actual measurement doesn't matter.

Dixie is definitely a 16" dog- as far as I've looked in every venue.
Her official AKC height is 15.75- she got her second measurement at Sheltie Nationals and while the official measuring person tried very hard to get her to relax and get a good measurement- that wicket was very squeaky and she did not like it so I'm sure it's a little high. but it doesn't matter in her case.
however, funny story- her only USDAA measurement- the judge got her at 13.5- I said thank you and walked over to where one of my friends was sitting and told her what Dixie measured......
there is no way that Dixie is under 14"- the Nadac judge earlier this year actually wicketed her to see if she should be jumping 12 but the wicket did not touch the ground.

now Cranberry who is on the edge was measured at 17.75 and then 18 at Sheltie Nationals. when I have measured him since then, I get under 18. If he'd been a little more then I would have gone the challenge route.

I have practiced measuring Destin as he'll be on the edge too. I measured him at 14" at the last agility trial so I'm hoping to get him used to it.
Jocu is over 14 and under 18 so not really worrying about him at the moment.
 
That is one thing I pratice with my puppies. We wicket at home, and every couple trials until they are old enough for official measurements, I take them to the table and wicket them. Not a big deal by the time they're old enough. Place them on the table and they will stand to be measured. I also wicket regularly at home.
In AKC, I have 2 borderline dogs. Kai and Fury both measure right at 14". I don't cheat to get it. I do however make sure they are stacked correctly. Kai got both of her measurements pretty easily. Can't remember the one, but Blair Kelly did the second. Fury isn't yet old enough at 11 months, but I will be certain that someone who knows how to measure correctly measures her. I will not have her jumping higher because someone can't measure right when I have measured her at that height without fiddling at home every time. I know of a couple who want to put the wicket on the dogs neck. One measured my 15.25" male at 16.5" for his under 2 measurement. Funny that later once he was 2 she measured him at 15.25" :P
 
I never even thought of getting measured as a problem (standing for the wicket). Maybe because we groom them on a grooming table so they are used to being picked up and placed on the table? Also, they have to stand for exam for obedience class so they are used to the stand (then we push a little on their shoulders) then give the stay command. For the stand for exam, they also are used to having strange people come over to them and they have to stand still and not beg for pets :lol:

So, maybe the training/conditioning part should be part of the entire agility training.
 
What about using standard-height, non-moveable wickets, like at specialties? The height divisions are over/under, so the actual, exact height of the dog doesn't really matter, right?

So, for AKC you would have a 10" wicket, a 14" wicket, an 18" wicket, and a 22" wicket. The wickets are made of a solid piece of metal, like a cricket hoop. No up-and-down swingy arm.

If the measuring judge puts the 10" wicket on a dog, and there's daylight under it, the dog jumps 8". If s/he puts the 10" wicket on the dog, and the feet swing, the dog jumps 12" (after double-checking it with the 14" wicket). This takes away the messiness of the wicket-arm moving, the dog wiggling, and the handler bickering about three-eighths of an inch.

It's not perfect, but could a system like this work?
 
tofu pup said:
What about using standard-height, non-moveable wickets, like at specialties? The height divisions are over/under, so the actual, exact height of the dog doesn't really matter, right?

So, for AKC you would have a 10" wicket, a 14" wicket, an 18" wicket, and a 22" wicket. The wickets are made of a solid piece of metal, like a cricket hoop. No up-and-down swingy arm.

If the measuring judge puts the 10" wicket on a dog, and there's daylight under it, the dog jumps 8". If s/he puts the 10" wicket on the dog, and the feet swing, the dog jumps 12" (after double-checking it with the 14" wicket). This takes away the messiness of the wicket-arm moving, the dog wiggling, and the handler bickering about three-eighths of an inch.

It's not perfect, but could a system like this work?
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yes- it's how measuring is done in Nadac but with PVC wickets....
 
Actually, you'd need more than that, as it would matter somewhat for international classes. Though only a small percentage of dogs do them. The height breakdown for ISC is different than the regular classes.
 
HopeShelties said:
Actually, you'd need more than that, as it would matter somewhat for international classes. Though only a small percentage of dogs do them. The height breakdown for ISC is different than the regular classes.
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I haven't ever seen ISC classes offered at any of the 'local' trials..............
I doubt that I would enter any if they were offered - Cran would have to jump some ridiculous height like in USDAA.......
 
Only a handful of trials hold them. Around here, the cluster was one, and the Cleveland one is the other. It adds some nice challenge. Breakdown in height is really weird. Anything under 13.75" is 14", 13.75-16.75" is 18", and everything else is 26" :P
Kai is a 12" dog but did 18" in the past in ISC with some nice combined placements. Athena did 14" and won.
 
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