On Early Takeoffs

What you are NOT missing is a lot of politics, and some topics are hotter than others:smile2:
¨My dog takes off early for the jump¨
¨My dog has ETS¨
are different things for me. One is description of what actually happening and second is a label.
Jumping is a complex issue and can be affected by many variables. As a baseline, dogs have vision that is significantly different that of human, they do not see same colors, shapes, have different spatial awareness etc. And of course some just like people need vision correction just like people who wear glasses.
There are other multitude of variables, including structure, age, foundation training, rear end awareness work,acute and chronic injuries, handling options are being some important factors in my experience that can and should be researched, discussed and shared with each other trying to work on solutions and ideas. Not everything works for every dog. Solution based path is much to my liking.
HGR is the only one program currently that addresses jumping issues and offers ways of retraining. I would like to see more of such effort.
Are we training what we need to be training to help our dogs to cope with challenges of agility? Are we handling the best way THIS CURRENT dog can process?
 
SheltieChe said:
What you are NOT missing is a lot of politics, and some topics are hotter than others:smile2:
¨My dog takes off early for the jump¨
¨My dog has ETS¨
are different things for me. One is description of what actually happening and second is a label.
Jumping is a complex issue and can be affected by many variables. As a baseline, dogs have vision that is significantly different that of human, they do not see same colors, shapes, have different spatial awareness etc. And of course some just like people need vision correction just like people who wear glasses.
There are other multitude of variables, including structure, age, foundation training, rear end awareness work,acute and chronic injuries, handling options are being some important factors in my experience that can and should be researched, discussed and shared with each other trying to work on solutions and ideas. Not everything works for every dog. Solution based path is much to my liking.
HGR is the only one program currently that addresses jumping issues and offers ways of retraining. I would like to see more of such effort.
Are we training what we need to be training to help our dogs to cope with challenges of agility? Are we handling the best way THIS CURRENT dog can process?
Click to expand...

I can see this.

What I can't see is saying, "That dog has ETS."

Why is more the issue. I don't really understand how labeling a dog as ETS helps in anyway.

The discussions should be, that dog has a vision impairment, that dog needs to be retrained, that handler is sending the dog off wrong.

I am having a hard time with the label ETS. Therefore, I don't necessarily agree that this is a real problem and that it deserves more attention. I think that broadening jumping issues and placing them under a label really doesn't help anything.
 
SheltieChe said:
HGR is the only one program currently that addresses jumping issues and offers ways of retraining. I would like to see more of such effort.
Are we training what we need to be training to help our dogs to cope with challenges of agility? Are we handling the best way THIS CURRENT dog can process?
Click to expand...

The #2 reason I'd avoid HGR is that I have regularly been able to observe this handler & her dogs in person. Talk about jumping issues? Her dogs frequently take bars out with great regularity. Not just one or two dogs, mind you. If I haven't seen any improvement over an extended period in her own dogs I doubt whatever it is she is doing can identify what retraining can be done to be effective.

The #1 reason I'd avoid HGR if I had a dog affected by ETS, is that assuming it is a *vision* issue (not simply an eye sight issue - the two are not the same) then there is absolutely nothing that can be done to help a dog jump something better if the dog has difficulty in visualizing that object to be jumped over.

In the cases where improvement in jump skills can be attained then those are not dogs with vision issues or ETS as it has been defined. Those are dogs that have a different cause for their poor jump form & so resolving jump issues for those dogs is to first identify the cause(s) of the problem.

If the cause is vision related then HGR will not be of help, hence if the dog truly has ETS & the assumption that ETS is vision related then HGR will not be of benefit to a dog that has been accurately determined to be an ETS dog.

There are many reasons for poor jump form & it takes an experienced eye to identify & isolate and an experienced expert to formulate a program to help the dog improve. HGR is not the only such program.

Many dogs can benefit from a thorough jump education - most effective if initiated before running courses. "Retraining" can help some dogs if they have picked up bad habits or have no education to begin with, but no "retraining" to-date has been able to effectively & reliably take a true ETS dog and "cure" it.
 
So, is ETS actually simply defined as a vision issue specifically trouble with depth perception?

I am so confused......I have done lots of reading on this, but seems to be such a loosely used term that I really give it no merit.

What really causes me to believe that ETS is just vision issues is that dogs get progressively worse over time. Just as many people who have eyesight issues that get worse as they get older.
 
Danisgoat, am thinking a lot of people are starting to call all dogs that have difficulties with jumping ¨dogs with ETS¨.
I do not have detailed info on HGR but I like they they are trying to open communication ways of what can be done and changed in our views on dog training, jump training, perception training.
I allow the possibility that there are some visual changes that currently are unidentifiable by technology and those changes can lead to distorted jumping efforts however I deeply doubt it is as wide spread and it made believe now. Jumping has HUGE environmental component and one can not just push it aside as non important. This is BS science. If articles as this post started with are to be published I would like to see well documented case study, with details, on body structure of the dog in question, history of injuries, physio report, gait structure, what retraining programs were done, what goals set, what changes were achieved, videotapes before and after etc.
Am disagreeing that nothing can be done with those dogs that are found to have vision issues. Coming from human standpoint of people with vision loss there is lots can be done to help people to cope, reorient and compensate with other means. Am sure same goes for dogs and I am including dog with ALL kinds of vision issues. Am sure in many cases changing handling to better support dog´s path, retraining dog to be better with spatial awareness will help. Probably not to be on world team but be happy doing weekend agility.
And what is the goal of labeling dogs with ETS? Dump the dog, neuter to eliminate dog from breeding pool? Can we get away with straight fronts too, just to be on safe side?:lol:
 
Ets

I really know nothing about ETS but there was a girl in Calif.that had a sheltie named Dare that was labeled ETS and she had lenses put on the dog.Her site is no longer up but there was a huge difference when the dog had the lenses on for jumping.
 
I agree that there is MUCH more to be learned about why this happens. And I also agree that ETS is a catch-all term for what could be a number of issues. And it is also true that the more commonplace a term becomes, the more often it is misused. We absolutely run the risk of having less experienced handlers, or even less experienced trainers mislabel a dog that may just have a training issue, or an injury that could be addressed.

However, to shy away from what is an issue (whether or not we know its true origin, cause, symptoms, solution, etc.) isn't fair to the dogs we are asking to perform at such a high level.

How does it benefit? It benefits me as a handler. I no longer correct my dog who is dropping bars, or maybe I even retire my dog, I learn how to adjust my handling, etc. It benefits my dog, who is no longer being asked to do something it is not physically capable of doing. It benefits the breeder, who can try to figure out where the issue is coming from (and yes, hopefully like a straight front, is something that they should try to eradicate in their lines).

Just because something hasn't been clearly defined doesn't mean it isn't real. If I knew a pedigree of dogs had a history of straight fronts and they were being sold as performance dogs, I would be frustrated. I think that more research should be done and I would not want to buy a dog from that line.

Yes--absolutely we need more information. But to put our fingers in our ears and refuse to listen until more information is available is myopic. If we had done that with cancer, for example, 20 years ago, where would be now? We need research, and exposure, and yes, even anecdotes--so we can define what we're seeing (and yes, sometimes it is training versus vision).
 
In my mind there is no moral dilemma when dog has difficulties navigating jumps at agility course but also displays some varied symptoms at regular life- i.e. misjudges jumps from/ to staircase, gets disoriented in own back yard at low light etc. Whether we can ID eye problem or not, it is clearly something is the problem.
It is a moral dilemma to me to find it ethical to neuter the dog because dog has difficulty judging distances at agility but is perfectly fine everywhere else in regular life.
I say, lets skip the labels and keep learning what makes dog to make decisions they make when they orient on the agility course. Because a lot of dogs do take off early at some point or other. They not stupid or wrong, there is reason and I would like significant database to be created to know why and how to help it.
For example, my dog Che has a ¨chase¨ issue. When as a handler I go ¨too far¨ he wants to catch up with me, so he would take off early or skip the stride. He is fine jumper so he gets away with whatever take off point he chooses but I understand why he makes decisions he makes.
you can see it at 0.6 while he takes off at yellow and lands in yellow but he covers entire AF in one stride, he barely touches near the top at 0.16 doing same AF Batman style:biggrin2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVg-k2TKRfA
Jumping effort is greatly influenced by handling. While made for different purpose this clip shows how differently he is reading my handling and adjusts his jumping effort. Very unelegant diving with FC and much better understanding with other two variations IMHO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbPElL-nP78
Watch at 1.10 where this BC takes off, obviously early. Not a problem, as dog clears just fine. Yet why this dog makes decision he made? Is it because handler too far?
http://www.oneminddogs.com/article/agility-challenge-2/
could it be this?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...87821644765.2015387.1503174245&type=1&theater
I think this ETS labeling at this point hindering the communication and preventing people from looking deeper and learning.
 
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I guess I have never seen a dog with true ETS. I only have heard about it and seen videos. I am assuming this is something you see a lot Ashley? And now a lot in shelties (in increasing numbers). That is probably the reason for me not really understanding that this is really an urgent issue.

I just believe, hey, that dog has vision issues and cannot perceive depth correctly. This is just my ignorance on the subject coming out. I still do not agree with the labeling ETS. I think that dealing with the actual issue (ie vision impairment, training, structure, etc.) is more beneficial. You are not going to find the same reasoning for ETS in every dog.

In regards to comparing it to cancer. I don't see dogs dying from this, so I can not really relate to that analogy.
 
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danisgoat said:
I guess I have never seen a dog with true ETS. I only have heard about it and seen videos. Most of the people I know in the agility world, have never seen it either. I am assuming this is something you see a lot Ashley? And now a lot in shelties (in increasing numbers). That is probably the reason for me not really understanding that this is really an urgent issue.
Click to expand...

Sadly, yes, I have seen it quite a bit up here. It seems to be cropping up in certain lines, but there is only speculation about that.

My trainer even has a GREAT dog that she runs that has ETS, but it is an issue that is mild and manageable.
 
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