On Early Takeoffs

Common sense here- if the dog has difficulty navigating his own house and routinely misjudges distances in his house, that is not ETS- it is a dog with vision problems who happen to be doing agility.
Am sure there are dogs just like people who have varied vision problems just like humans do and quite possible some might need "glasses": as they get older even if they do not need to read a newspaper:lol:
Current definition of ETS- dog has jumping problems but we can not figure out why, at least that is how I am reading it. That is not how most message boards interested in phenomena discuss it though, it seems ETS word become synonym to the dog with jumping issues, all inclusive.
If we have dog with vision problems it is dog with vision problems, whether we can put fancy diagnosis to it or not.
If you have runny nose, fever and cough, you might not need a doctor to tell you have a cold...
To clarify few points- there is no funded reseach and there is no $$$ invested. There are few vet grads doing some research, there are some dog trainers who have been accumulating their own experience info but it is not combined or reseached deeply. Up till short time nobody cared or bred dogs deliberately for being great jumper. There is plenty of funding and research in equestrian word but it does not translate the same.
People in Europe seems to take mugh lighter view on syndrome itself and when they have with vision problems they call it dog with vision problems. I have a buddy in Slovenia whose Sheltie had distance judging issues on the course and at the house was retired from agility for safety.
Whethere such dogs should be bred... I am glad I do not have to make those decisions because historically I see dogs bred with much worse health problems IMHO, like hereditary seizure disorder...
 
Ets

SheltieChe said:
Common sense here- if the dog has difficulty navigating his own house and routinely misjudges distances in his house, that is not ETS- it is a dog with vision problems who happen to be doing agility.
Am sure there are dogs just like people who have varied vision problems just like humans do and quite possible some might need "glasses": as they get older even if they do not need to read a newspaper:lol:
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Are you a vet now?How do you know this for sure?
 
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ClantyreSheltie said:
Huh? I know lots of things without having been to med school. Like people have spleens (though I have never seen one in person). I think it's a reasonable assumption that dogs have varying depth perception.
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I'm with Rachael. Snarky comments add nothing to this conversation and are against the rules.
 
If the vision problem happens to go along with early takeoffs, the dog does have ETS. Quite a few dogs who take off early, which fulfills the meaning of 'early take off', do in fact have a vision issue at play.
No one is discounting other issues, but I don't think a dog should be bred just because there are worse issues out there than ETS. It is something I consider serious enough not to want to fool with winding up in my lines. Using the logic that there are worse things that can be bred on as a way to justify another issue as being okay is not a good idea IMO.
All known issues in a line should be weighed before a breeding is done. They should be weighed by the breeder carefully. The things you breed on are things you must be comfortable with having produced. You have to be able to live with the decisions. I would have a hard time knowingly breeding, producing, and selling dogs from parents/with close relatives with vision issues that lead to ETS to people. It can affect those people and dogs ability to enjoy the sport they participate in.
This description of ETS is from one of Linda's articles.
"Early takeoff syndrome (ETS) is a term I
use to describe a jumping problem seen in
some performance dogs where they take
off too early for jumps. The syndrome
ranges from a subtle hitch on the dog’s
final stride to severe stuttering before a
jump. The dog most often inappropriately
shortens his last stride before takeoff, but
some dogs simply leave out the last stride.
In both cases, the takeoff distance is too
far back leading to the dog’s jumping arc
peaking before the bar, and the dog begins
the descent phase of the arc before
he reaches the hurdle. As a result, the
dog may knock bars. "

This definition does not exclude vision issues that lead to early takeoffs from being ETS.
 
Vision problems do not always result in jumping issue either.

For example, my JRT mix Jazz had incomplete juvenile cataracts. The cataracts did effect her perception of light. She do not like going into dark corners, long dark colored walls which may have shadows near them(again lightening effects) or spaces she could not see an opening out of. Yet in 15 yrs she never had issues jumping. Not on the bed, the furniture, or tables and bookshelves(yes she was a JRT mix). She was a Frisbee playing freak and would rarely mistime a jump or drop a throw.
 
SheltieChe said:
Common sense here- if the dog has difficulty navigating his own house and routinely misjudges distances in his house, that is not ETS- it is a dog with vision problems who happen to be doing agility.

Current definition of ETS- dog has jumping problems but we can not figure out why, at least that is how I am reading it. That is not how most message boards interested in phenomena discuss it though, it seems ETS word become synonym to the dog with jumping issues, all inclusive.
If we have dog with vision problems it is dog with vision problems, whether we can put fancy diagnosis to it or not.

People in Europe seems to take mugh lighter view on syndrome itself and when they have with vision problems they call it dog with vision problems. I have a buddy in Slovenia whose Sheltie had distance judging issues on the course and at the house was retired from agility for safety.
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I'm confused now.:confused2:

So ETS is basically unidentified depth perception problems/vision issues and therefore not just relevent to agility dogs?

Are European competitors and the rest of the world just accepting that dogs have 'vision problems' and not looking into the cause? While they might not want to describe it as ETS I'm surprised that there isn't some equivalent level of investigaton going on outside North America, especially as agility is so 'intense' (for want of a better word) in Europe.

One thing that occured to me in relation to this is that the jumps in Europe and the UK look to me quite different to those in North America. They are 'spacier' (fewer poles) and there doesn't seem to be as much variation in jumps on one course. I wonder if perhaps this could mean ETS dogs cope better for some reason with European style courses so it isn't noticed very often?
 
seashel said:
I'm confused now.:confused2:

So ETS is basically unidentified depth perception problems/vision issues and therefore not just relevent to agility dogs?

Are European competitors and the rest of the world just accepting that dogs have 'vision problems' and not looking into the cause? While they might not want to describe it as ETS I'm surprised that there isn't some equivalent level of investigaton going on outside North America, especially as agility is so 'intense' (for want of a better word) in Europe.

One thing that occured to me in relation to this is that the jumps in Europe and the UK look to me quite different to those in North America. They are 'spacier' (fewer poles) and there doesn't seem to be as much variation in jumps on one course. I wonder if perhaps this could mean ETS dogs cope better for some reason with European style courses so it isn't noticed very often?
Click to expand...

I have heard from a few international trainers that in the UK it's like the US--the acceptance, research and definition depend on the people involved.

I wonder if it is less common in Europe because the lines are different? As has been mentioned here it appears to be in certain genetic pools versus others--so it's possible that it's less common where you are.
 
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