Pros and Cons silky vs coarse coats.

I tried to find a photo of the boys both wet out of the river.....this was the best I could do. I'm not sure it tells the story

The first picture is both the boys after a swim - about 10 minutes later. You'll see that Indy with his softer overcoat appears to be mostly dry, even though his undercoat his twice the thickness of Bacca's.

Bacca is still showing wet, but he has virtually no undercoat and does not shed.

The second picture shows the wave and curl of a soft-coated Sheltie. This was about a day later after his swim. If I don't brush that out, it will matt. Whereas with Bacca, it just settles down and lays flat.

To me that's the difference between coarse and soft.

Yep..that would be Trapp to Barb. i never have that problem with Jasper,however,Trapp will get that ringlet,or wave at his ears,if its not brushed out. Although I guess lucky,we really have not had matts yet at the ears.

Now Mia,holy cow! Her coat is so soft,wispy.And more so at her ears.We do have to keep checking for matts.Even her pants are the same way.If you can imagine spun silk threads,wisping...that is her coat texture.
 
Soft coats and burrs don't co-exist well either! Son Ryan left the gate open this morning and the boys had a good 15 minutes of a free run in the Back 40 before I realized they were gone.

Bacca came back fine. Indy came back COVERED in burrs. It took me an hour, and I got them all out eventually, though a few I had to cut out!
 
Soft coats and burrs don't co-exist well either! Son Ryan left the gate open this morning and the boys had a good 15 minutes of a free run in the Back 40 before I realized they were gone.

Bacca came back fine. Indy came back COVERED in burrs. It took me an hour, and I got them all out eventually, though a few I had to cut out!

Yes that is my biggest issue with the soft coats. Burrs love it. Not ideal for a breed was meant to be running outdoors herding sheep. Not practical at all.

As I said Justice almost never gets burrs and if he does it is his feet.
 
I wish we could pass around a pup so we could feel what "silky" and "coarse" are supposed to be. The other day, as I lie in bed, sick, and sleeping LONG hours, the boys decided to keep me company by being my bookends. I guess they wanted to be sure I didn't fall off the bed or something.

So, I was petting them. Miko's coat feels softer on the outside, Koji's is more coarse. I swear I said the opposite at the beginning of the thread. Therefore, I have no clue what the heck I'm talking about. lol.
 
I wish we could pass around a pup so we could feel what "silky" and "coarse" are supposed to be. The other day, as I lie in bed, sick, and sleeping LONG hours, the boys decided to keep me company by being my bookends. I guess they wanted to be sure I didn't fall off the bed or something.

So, I was petting them. Miko's coat feels softer on the outside, Koji's is more coarse. I swear I said the opposite at the beginning of the thread. Therefore, I have no clue what the heck I'm talking about. lol.

Cheryl,

You're assessment is not wrong. As I review this thread it seems to be all over the map in terms of what we define as soft/coarse, silky/smooth, how much undercoat, etc.

I think its all in the definition. I'm just about to make dinner, but if get time tonight I'll put some thought into finding those definitions to help make it clearer.
 
Well, I've tried to find official definitions, but they don't help much.

Here they are:

The coat should be double, the outer consisting of long, straight, harsh (coarse) hair; the undercoat short, furry and so dense as to give the entire coat its “stand-off quality.

Faults: Coat short or flat, in whole or in part; wavy, curly, soft or silky. Lack of undercoat

“Harsh” if it tends to repel water (note that some will interchange harsh and coarse) Some coats are profuse but soft and fluffy. While these may look impressive, they are harder to maintain and are a disadvantage to a working dog because they soak up water like and sponge and tangle easily in the underbrush.

Coarse or harsh does not mean “dry”. Shelties coats should be protected from the sun with UV conditioners if they are outside for extended periods. A tri’s black coat will bleach red if sun-damaged.

The Shetland Sheepdog Breed Standard defines the beautiful Sheltie coat as a thick, double coat consisting of long, straight, harsh (coarse) hair. The undercoat is short and furry, and so dense as to give the entire coat its "standoff" quality. The mane and frill are abundant, and should be particularly impressive in males, while the forelegs are well feathered. The hind legs above the hocks are covered profusely with hair; and below the hocks are fairly smooth. Smooth-coated Shelties are highly undesirable.

The Shetland Sheepdog has a thick, weather-resistant, double coat. The outer coat is long, harsh textured and straight. The undercoat is soft, short, and dense. The coat stands away from the body and is noticeably more profuse on males than females. The neck is heavily coated forming an impressive mane, frill and apron. The front of the forelegs are covered with short, smooth hair while the back sides are well feathered. The rump and hind legs down to the hock are covered with thick hair that forms the characteristic “trousers.” The tail is richly plumed. Hair on the face, tips of ears, feet and hocks is smooth. Trimming of these smooth areas is allowed.

Faults: Short or flat coat; absence of undercoat; wavy, curly, soft, or silky texture.
Disqualification: Smooth coat.

Smooth coat seems to refer to short haired variety and mostly limited to Collies.

My takeawy on this is that Bacca has the proper harsh overcoat, but still lacking in thick undercoat. Indy has the undercoat, but despite how lovely he feels, his soft overcoat would be a fault.

In the weather category, its hard to say he performs better. I can dunk Bacca in the river and his undercoat won't get completely wet because his guard hair protects him. At the the same time, his guard hair is harder to dry.

If I plunk Indy in the river, he's saturated in a moment, but he dries quicker because he has the silky fur, not the harsh guard hair.

When I run my hands down them, Indy is soft. Bacca is definitely harsh.

These are not perfect pictures, but if you look close at Bacca's coat you see the guard hairs have abit of wiry texture to it. Indy on the other hand is all fluff.

Seems like Bacca is closer to standard, even though Indy's thick coat seems to photograph better.

Hope this helps!
 

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Good write-up (copy/paste) Barb. I have to admit, its hard to say if Miko/Koji have the proper coat as 1. they were neutered (Koji very early), 2. it's summer all year here compared to where you live, and 3. I can tell you who I think has the proper coat. ;)

Koji has no coat. Even when he's full of undercoat, he's still not fluffy in any sort of sense. It's quite sad. I'd say he's the fluffiest here. So, he probably has the softer coat that doesn't shed water/debris properly. Oh, and Koji dries easily but also gets soaked easily too (down to the undercoat). Oh and here's a wet Koji. He was dry before we got back into the kayak.

Versus Miko's coat. Boy, when it's winter, he is fluffy! However, his coat is slightly wavy (but I like it, it's cute). When I bathe him, I put the shower head directly onto his skin/coat because it's the ONLY way to get the water into the undercoat. So, he repels water very nicely, lol. And when his undercoat is wet though, he takes forever to dry. It is very soft/downy.

So, minus the wavy hair that I love on Miko, it seems like he has the proper coat. Koji's just a very large Papillion.
 
Cheryl, I wish you could feel Jaime's coat. It is a beautiful texture. I think that is one of the main reasons, amoung many, that I decided to get him. It is shiny and healthy does not feel wiry but is straight and stands off his body. In many of my pictures of him after 1 yr(blew it all in the yearling molt)he does not have much undercoat yet but he doesn't look like it. In the picture I posted of him last week, he is wet in that picture, again he doesn't look like it. Nothing sticks to him.

AOACs tend to have a softer coat texture especially the blues in my experience. But you can find the proper texture if you look. Grizz has an even harsher coat than Jaime. I love his coat too. I am still trying to figure out how you can tell in puppies before the adult coat comes in.
 
Yeah, i have no idea what coat Gizmo has. i have absolutely nothing to compare it to. I really like it though, he has a very soft downy undercoat and soft guard hairs. but then his pants and tail are really course, at least to me they are. so i dont know if you would consider him course or silky, someone with more experience would be better at saying then i:lol:
 
Wow- reading all these posts, I think my sheltie Miles totally got the short end of the stick. He has a soft, short coat that gets curly and wavy and gets all manner of things stuck in it. He also has no undercoat but sheds like crazy (so I got the short end of the stick in that regard!). :mad: Is there any way to get a soft coat more harsh?
 
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