question on stacking/grooming

[Justicemom]

Racking is the equivalent to A-framing. The dog's front legs are too far in front of him/her, in which they will be at an angle instead of parallel to the ground. For an easy example, let's use horses (since it's not easy to find pictures of racking dogs )

http://cowboyfrank.net/fortvalley/breeds/Graphics/TennesseeWalkingHorse.jpg
As you can see, this horse's legs are at an angle. If you were to draw a straight line from the hocks up, and the front legs up, the two lines would intersect.

http://www.king-ranch.com/images/photo_quarter_horses3.jpg
For this horse, when you draw those two lines, they are parallel to each other.

Now, of course, Horse #1 is a Tennessee Walking Horse, so they are supposed to look like that. But just ignore that for now

And sometimes, even if you align the feet correctly, your dog will lean back (he might be scared, or unsure of something), and that will cause him to rack as well. But that is basically what racking (or A-framing) is. I hope I made sense! lol

Thanks for some reason the racking picture wasn't available but I think I get the idea. I had heard the term posting for leaning back(ie scared). But the back legs don't have to be leaning forward. Is it similar?

 

[Gina]

Thanks for some reason the racking picture wasn't available but I think I get the idea. I had heard the term posting for leaning back(ie scared). But the back legs don't have to be leaning forward. Is it similar?

Yes, it is very similar. It's pretty much the same thing, actually. But in this case, we're talking about the handler placing the front legs too far up. The dog doesn't have to be scared to rack, post, a-frame, or whatever you wish to call it There sure are a lot of terms for it haha.

 

[BarbV]

As far as pictures of groomed dogs, there are certain grooming techniques that aren't necessarily visible through pictures. Such as thinning on the skull, trimming of the lip lines, under jaw, shoulders, tuck, etc. There are A LOT of things that we trim. And as I said about every dog being different, NO dog is groomed the same as the other. Which is why it would be soooo beneficial to get with a really good groomer.

I guess I would be looking for pictures of the Sheltie ideal! I totally understand the techniques involved in grooming to cover deficiencies.

What I'm looking for is a the definitive picture of a perfect Sheltie! I know - and impossible task and too subjective. But it would sure help me in my grooming if I knew for sure what I was after. I've got Sheltie Talk and the Ultimate Guide to Sheltie Grooming, but I find it too academic. I think I do better with pictures. Show me the look I'm trying to achieve, and I'll figure it out from there.

 

[Lynne]

thanks everyone now I know what to aim for. Jake has never been stacked before so the training begins. He and Luna have a 4H show in July with Luna doing obedience and Jake doing showmanship. Megan's first AKC show will probably be the Clermont county show in the fall. If obedience training goes well he will compete in obedience too. Unfortunately they are not doing the mixed breeds.

The grooming question was mostly what to avoid when he goes to the groomer. He is not going to show in conformation, just juniors, so I hope they don't want him groomed to the level he would be for conformation shows. The main reason he is going to the groomers is for a thorough undercoat removal, feet, and ears. He is almost 3 years old and I don't think he has ever had his undercoat removed or been professionally groomed. He also does not want me to take a rake to his hind end. I have gotten enough out for 2 or 3 dogs around his neck and front end.

Thanks for the pics too, they help a lot. We have watched videos of sheltie showing but they usually don't have the greatest view. I also love the pics on the net but there is no way of knowing if the dogs are staked or not, especially the outdoor shots that so many breeders have. I will be taking pics as we go so I can get your feedback.

 

[Gina]

I guess I would be looking for pictures of the Sheltie ideal! I totally understand the techniques involved in grooming to cover deficiencies.

What I'm looking for is a the definitive picture of a perfect Sheltie! I know - and impossible task and too subjective. But it would sure help me in my grooming if I knew for sure what I was after. I've got Sheltie Talk and the Ultimate Guide to Sheltie Grooming, but I find it too academic. I think I do better with pictures. Show me the look I'm trying to achieve, and I'll figure it out from there.

Yes, a very impossible thing to ask for. But like I have preached before, if you want to learn how to groom properly, get with a very good groomer, breeder, or handler. See it in person; learn it in person. If I showed you a picture of what I trim on Cisco, that will do you no good. Because your dog and Cisco are not the same. I might trim Cisco on a certain spot, and I might not want to trim that exact thing on your dog. It's really hard to understand this sometimes. And it's never just "part the dog's ear hair like this and cut the excess". Because that is all you are doing... cutting excess hair. You need to SHAPE the dogs ears, not just simply do a cookie cutter trim job. It's a lot of technique to learn. You need to know the standard and know your dog's faults without being biased. And, of course, know how to trim fairly well.

thanks everyone now I know what to aim for. Jake has never been stacked before so the training begins. He and Luna have a 4H show in July with Luna doing obedience and Jake doing showmanship. Megan's first AKC show will probably be the Clermont county show in the fall. If obedience training goes well he will compete in obedience too. Unfortunately they are not doing the mixed breeds.

The grooming question was mostly what to avoid when he goes to the groomer. He is not going to show in conformation, just juniors, so I hope they don't want him groomed to the level he would be for conformation shows. The main reason he is going to the groomers is for a thorough undercoat removal, feet, and ears. He is almost 3 years old and I don't think he has ever had his undercoat removed or been professionally groomed. He also does not want me to take a rake to his hind end. I have gotten enough out for 2 or 3 dogs around his neck and front end.

Thanks for the pics too, they help a lot. We have watched videos of sheltie showing but they usually don't have the greatest view. I also love the pics on the net but there is no way of knowing if the dogs are staked or not, especially the outdoor shots that so many breeders have. I will be taking pics as we go so I can get your feedback.

Technically, the junior the is one who has to groom the dog he/she is showing. Not all juniors do this, so that they have an upper hand if it's groomed well. But it is the rules. Whether you choose to follow them or not is not my business. But, the dog should be groomed as if he is going into the conformation ring. The whole point of junior showmanship is to "grade" the handlers. And a handler not only walks in the ring, but gets his/her dog ready for it. The handler also tries to show the dog's best abilities and features. So if your dog is groomed as if he is going into the breed ring, then you have an upper hand. Not all regular pet groomers understand "show cuts". You would probably be better off paying a local breeder or handler to trim your dog for you (that's if you want to technically "break" the rules of junior showmanship).

And on a side note, a lot of breeders and handlers groom differently. Some are actually not that good But I think they have a better grip on things than your average person. It's good to learn from many people, and take from them what you want to do. You also need to know the standard, and have a good eye for a dog.

 

[Lynne]

Gina, I understand where you are coming from where the rules are concerned. But Jake has several years of undercoat that needs to be removed and I feel that it is kinder to Jake to have it removed by someone who has the proper equipment and knows what they are doing then to have my daughter or me do it the first time. I only expect a groomer to get me in the ballpark of where I want to be. Training Jake will be up to my daughter with me helping and doing research.

I have been looking at the standard and pics of championship dogs and can already point out several faults that Jake has. He is too tall, has a receding back skull, has prick ears, and his hind end is too tall. I don't expect her to win based on Jake but hopefully she will do well based on how well she trains him for the ring. This is a trial for both of us and we are only planning on doing 5 to 6 shows per year. If juniors is something that she enjoys and commits herself to I will consider getting her a better quality puppy in the future.

We are also planning on doing obedience with both dogs and possibly agility. Here are some pics of Jake with all his fur. I can put my finger about 2 inches in on his hind quarters before I get to his skin.
http://s998.photobucket.com/albums/...rkids/?action=view&current=Jake3.jpg&newest=1
http://s998.photobucket.com/albums/...rkids/?action=view&current=Jake7.jpg&newest=1

 

[Justicemom]

I could be wrong as I didn't do juniors. But I was under the impression the quality of the dog didn't matter. The judging is done on how the junior has trained, groomed and exhibited the dog. You don't need a champion quality dog to do well.

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

Find out from the groomer if they know how to trim a Sheltie, I think most don't. For some reason, they think the body needs "scissoring" and "evening up" and the tail needs trimmed like a Golden, and they really don't know what to do with ear hair. I see them come out with straight lines across the belly hair, and most of the pants gone, and the front feathers in a straight line, etc. It drives me nuts.

I would definitely find a Sheltie person in your area who can trim for you, or show you how. You will learn all kinds of things from them. Or tell your groomer to pull out the hair and bathe, but don't touch the dog with scissors.

 

[Lynne]

Shelli you are right about what the juniors should be judged on but Megan has one friend who was told that she would do better with a better dog. Maybe they are judging on the juniors ability to pick a quality dog too. Also juniors can show in conformation classes so if she really commits to this she could move into that as well.

Clantyre i will ask questions of the groomers as well. I already found out that they do line brushing so I am happy about that. I'm thinking bathe, remove undercoat, and scissoring on feet and hocks only. Maybe the back of the ears but leaving feathers and the rest of the coat alone. I just wish there was something I could do to tip his ears but he's too old for that. The ears are one thing i'm sure the judge will notice

 

[Gina]

Gina, I understand where you are coming from where the rules are concerned. But Jake has several years of undercoat that needs to be removed and I feel that it is kinder to Jake to have it removed by someone who has the proper equipment and knows what they are doing then to have my daughter or me do it the first time. I only expect a groomer to get me in the ballpark of where I want to be. Training Jake will be up to my daughter with me helping and doing research.

I have been looking at the standard and pics of championship dogs and can already point out several faults that Jake has. He is too tall, has a receding back skull, has prick ears, and his hind end is too tall. I don't expect her to win based on Jake but hopefully she will do well based on how well she trains him for the ring. This is a trial for both of us and we are only planning on doing 5 to 6 shows per year. If juniors is something that she enjoys and commits herself to I will consider getting her a better quality puppy in the future.

Like I said before, its none of my business whether you want to follow that rule or not. It's nothing huge in my book. But, as far as his packed coat goes, it's not hard to take it out yourself. Just buy a rake tool and rake him out. And I don't think it's fair to the dog to have several years of packed coat on him. I'm not judging here, so don't take that comment wrong. If you don't have the funds to take your dog to a groomer, then invest in a $7 rake tool and a grooming spray that helps the packed coat come out easier (to ease the pulling on the skin).

As far as Jake's conformation goes, don't worry about it too much if you and your daughter and just doing 6 shows a year for fun. And I applaud you for using him as a "tester" dog. If your daughter really wants to keep showing and will, then finding a better dog later on is a great idea. I know a lot of breeders will sell retired champions as junior dogs.

I could be wrong as I didn't do juniors. But I was under the impression the quality of the dog didn't matter. The judging is done on how the junior has trained, groomed and exhibited the dog. You don't need a champion quality dog to do well.

Let's get real here. We'd like to think that judges will judge the junior and NOT the dog, but that doesn't always happen. You will find that doing juniors can be just as frustrating as what goes on in the breed ring. Politics still exist in juniors, and judges will take into consideration the quality of your dog. That's just how life is. It's a dog show.

Find out from the groomer if they know how to trim a Sheltie, I think most don't. For some reason, they think the body needs "scissoring" and "evening up" and the tail needs trimmed like a Golden, and they really don't know what to do with ear hair. I see them come out with straight lines across the belly hair, and most of the pants gone, and the front feathers in a straight line, etc. It drives me nuts.

I would definitely find a Sheltie person in your area who can trim for you, or show you how. You will learn all kinds of things from them. Or tell your groomer to pull out the hair and bathe, but don't touch the dog with scissors.

I agree completely. But maybe asking a local pet groomer isn't a good idea. They might just say yes so that they can get a client. And I don't blame them. I mean, they need to make money, too!