Raw diet and Vet's opinions

[BarbV]

Going to play Devil's Advocate here.

Suppose that you found all kinds of "research" out there on the internet that supported the theory that feeding your dog woodchips was good for their teeth and great fiber! Great for their digestive!

Any good vet is going to caution you against going against the mainstream and away from "fad" diets. I expect your old vet was old school and went too far in his advice to you. Your new vet seems to have found a better way to "manage" you and your expectations.

My parallel story and how I handled it when I had Bacca on Orijen and his liver enzymes were through the roof. The vet presented me with various Hill and Science diet options and I'm sure really wanted me to buy a bag, but as we talked it through, it became apparent that the real goal was to get protein levels down to a manageable level, and to supply sufficient other nutrients as well. I'm sure she recorded every bit of our conversation and my decision to find a lower protein diet on my own and give it a try.

To be fair to vets, they are conservative because they have to be. If they stray too far from mainstream, then they are open to malpractice if something goes wrong that "they sanctuioned or prescribed".

So go easy on the vets, guys! Most of them really do have our best interests at heart, and not the margin on the "prescribed food".

 

[Toffee's Mom]

Going to play Devil's Advocate here.

Suppose that you found all kinds of "research" out there on the internet that supported the theory that feeding your dog woodchips was good for their teeth and great fiber! Great for their digestive!

Any good vet is going to caution you against going against the mainstream and away from "fad" diets. I expect your old vet was old school and went too far in his advice to you. Your new vet seems to have found a better way to "manage" you and your expectations.

My parallel story and how I handled it when I had Bacca on Orijen and his liver enzymes were through the roof. The vet presented me with various Hill and Science diet options and I'm sure really wanted me to buy a bag, but as we talked it through, it became apparent that the real goal was to get protein levels down to a manageable level, and to supply sufficient other nutrients as well. I'm sure she recorded every bit of our conversation and my decision to find a lower protein diet on my own and give it a try.

To be fair to vets, they are conservative because they have to be. If they stray too far from mainstream, then they are open to malpractice if something goes wrong that "they sanctioned or prescribed".

So go easy on the vets, guys! Most of them really do have our best interests at heart, and not the margin on the "prescribed food".

Not going against vets at all, I enjoy a debate, so if the guy had given me some good scientific examples I would have discussed it further, but he wasn't OPEN to discussion and was being patronizing and a tad sexist on top of it! Personally, I can't stand that no matter what accreditation anybody got in school. This was one particular ONE vet that I am sharing my experience about, by no means will I malign Vets in general, nor did I in my post!

If you look at the link I posted that he printed out for me and make me take it is NOT mentioning studies nor other solid evidence but it's biased and self serving.

 

[The Quahog]

As a veterinarian who is unapologetically dubious about seeing my patients on raw diets. I think that the last post from Toffee'sMom makes an important distinction. It wasn't the opposition to raw feeding that was the problem, it was the dismissive attitude. Not recommending raw does not prove that a veterinarian is an ignorant dinosaur whose fossilized beliefs do not make him open to new concepts. I do not consider myself in that category, except for the dinosaur part.

I see quite a few clients who, largely through internet information which tells them things like veterinarians recommend kibble because it makes dogs sick so we can make more money, want to try raw, know my opinion on it, or just discuss it. They deserve to have their concerns (or, in this case, my concerns) addressed in rational, objective terms.

I won't get into it publicly here, (you're welcome ), I am happy to support my stance by pm. But let me pass along one thought. One common line that we keep hearing when discussing things like salmonella is 'It is perfectly safe if you do it right and know what you are doing.' You know what- that scares the hell out of me. And while I have a wonderful clientele, if you knew clients it would scare you as well, if you were responsible for their pets' health. Most people will try to 'do it right' at first, but then they get busy and less attentive... You can take your kid out into the woods and eat mushrooms with them 'if you do it right and know what you are doing', but I wouldn't recommend that people 'give it a try' and see how it works out for them. Even if they bring a book.

So don't confuse ' I changed veterinarians because my previous one did not recommend raw feeding' with 'I changed veterinarians because when I told my previous veterinarian I wanted to try it he was dismissive and condescending .' Those are two different issues. - Dr. Mac

 

[OntarioSheltie]

Not going against vets at all, I enjoy a debate, so if the guy had given me some good scientific examples I would have discussed it further, but he wasn't OPEN to discussion and was being patronizing and a tad sexist on top of it! Personally, I can't stand that no matter what accreditation anybody got in school. This was one particular ONE vet that I am sharing my experience about, by no means will I malign Vets in general, nor did I in my post!

If you look at the link I posted that he printed out for me and make me take it is NOT mentioning studies nor other solid evidence but it's biased and self serving.

As a veterinarian who is unapologetically dubious about seeing my patients on raw diets. I think that the last post from Toffee'sMom makes an important distinction. It wasn't the opposition to raw feeding that was the problem, it was the dismissive attitude. Not recommending raw does not prove that a veterinarian is an ignorant dinosaur whose fossilized beliefs do not make him open to new concepts. I do not consider myself in that category, except for the dinosaur part.

I see quite a few clients who, largely through internet information which tells them things like veterinarians recommend kibble because it makes dogs sick so we can make more money, want to try raw, know my opinion on it, or just discuss it. They deserve to have their concerns (or, in this case, my concerns) addressed in rational, objective terms.

I won't get into it publicly here, (you're welcome ), I am happy to support my stance by pm. But let me pass along one thought. One common line that we keep hearing when discussing things like salmonella is 'It is perfectly safe if you do it right and know what you are doing.' You know what- that scares the hell out of me. And while I have a wonderful clientele, if you knew clients it would scare you as well, if you were responsible for their pets' health. Most people will try to 'do it right' at first, but then they get busy and less attentive... You can take your kid out into the woods and eat mushrooms with them 'if you do it right and know what you are doing', but I wouldn't recommend that people 'give it a try' and see how it works out for them. Even if they bring a book.

So don't confuse ' I changed veterinarians because my previous one did not recommend raw feeding' with 'I changed veterinarians because when I told my previous veterinarian I wanted to try it he was dismissive and condescending .' Those are two different issues. - Dr. Mac

Exactly!

 

[k9kreationz]

So don't confuse ' I changed veterinarians because my previous one did not recommend raw feeding' with 'I changed veterinarians because when I told my previous veterinarian I wanted to try it he was dismissive and condescending .' Those are two different issues. - Dr. Mac

I just wanted to say yay to what you wrote. I know Toffee'sMom meant exactly the latter. I always tell people that after working at a grocery store, I have learned that the general population is basically stupid/ignorant. If I was a vet, I'd definitely make sure my clients understood what goes into feeding RAW. It's more than just throwing a piece of meat on the ground. Kinda like if I was a MD and my patient said they wanted to go vegan 100% tomorrow. I'd probably make sure they are well-informed and make a follow-up appt. Because, like I said, people are, in general, ignorant. Yes, that includes a handful of us here on the board. lol.

But kinda like Toffee'sMom, I made a very controversial choice in my 20's. Many doctors refused to help me, most told me I wasn't old enough to make the decision. But the one doc I loved, was the one who questioned my decision, listened to my answer, we talked and discussed things and voila. He was the one to help me. I WANT a vet to question my actions, so we can discuss things further, versus me following him blindly.

I have a ton of questions for my vet and I admit, I'm afraid to even bring it up in fear he thinks I'm one of those people that "follow what the internet says". But in reality, I'm just throwing out options and asking him why he went the route he did. Questioning, discussing, so much better for client and doctor....wouldn't you all agree.

Good luck with the new vet. He sounds like he's at least accepting to your "way of life".

 

[BarbV]

Dr. Mac

Thanks for your timely chime in! I think you hit the nail on the head here. It's not the position so much as how it was communicated. Wrong!

I guess, it doesn't matter what service industry you are in....there are tactful ways of dealing with your clients questions. So yes, if I was to go into my hairdresser and tell her that I wanted to die my hair green, I think the one that I currently go to would tactfully talk me away from it. And not tell me I was crazy for considering it. Then she would talk me back to blonde highlights

That being said, Bacca got his blood work done a couple of days ago. I had a conversation with the vet today about the options: Stay the course, revisit diet and meds, more diagnostics, etc.

This led to a conversation about Raw. I've been reading the posts and have even experimented a little bit with it, feeding my dogs dogs the odd chcken thigh. But I never got serious about it. Mostly because it is just plain too messy. Dogs ended up with chicken juice all over their fur.

So when I asked my vet about it, her first response was silence. Then a cautious "no". While she acknowledges that dogs were originally carnivorous, they did not live with humans. Her concern is the bacteria in their mouths and fur, and ultimately their waste that is not contained in a raw diet. She is concerned about bacteria. She did not say no, but neither was she happy with the idea.

I think I see her point. My dogs like to lick me. I'm not sure how healthy it would be to be licked by a dog that just ate some raw chicken. Blech!

 

[Toffee's Mom]

...
This led to a conversation about Raw. I've been reading the posts and have even experimented a little bit with it, feeding my dogs dogs the odd chcken thigh. But I never got serious about it. Mostly because it is just plain too messy. Dogs ended up with chicken juice all over their fur.

So when I asked my vet about it, her first response was silence. Then a cautious "no". While she acknowledges that dogs were originally carnivorous, they did not live with humans. Her concern is the bacteria in their mouths and fur, and ultimately their waste that is not contained in a raw diet. She is concerned about bacteria. She did not say no, but neither was she happy with the idea.

I think I see her point. My dogs like to lick me. I'm not sure how healthy it would be to be licked by a dog that just ate some raw chicken. Blech!

The bacteria in fur and in feces if you don't clean up yard, etc. is a valid opinion and I can appreciate that especially if seniors and smaller children are around etc. Your vet discussing it with you would have been acceptable, if it had been me. Mind you, my follow up argument would have to be that the recalls and salmonella found in processed dog food are proof that the kibble isn't all that sanitary either and can cause the same problem in their mouth and fur.
The raw meat has to be fresh, people! From a good source, lol... Plus I used to eat Steak Tartar in Europe all the time, it was delicious.. hahaha Sometimes hype is so not worth the worry... BUT at least your vet let you make your own choices and discusses it honestly.

 

[Toffee's Mom]

....


So don't confuse ' I changed veterinarians because my previous one did not recommend raw feeding' with 'I changed veterinarians because when I told my previous veterinarian I wanted to try it he was dismissive and condescending .' Those are two different issues. - Dr. Mac

Thank you, that is exactly where I was coming from!

PS I didn't just want to try it, at that point I had already been feeding exclusively raw for a few months, lol.

 

[Caro]

I think its interesting that a lot of vets over there are against raw feeding. Vets over here encourage owners to give a raw meaty bone or chicken neck or wing to help combat dental problems. Every vet I have seen (quite a lot) has suggested this. Usually I get asked why I cook the meat for my dogs rather than why I feed them home made meals. I have never thought about the salmonella issue but it is definately a valid one. Only once was I ever advised to use a special kibble (a joint one for Mr D) but the specialist was just as happy for me to keep adding a joint supplement to his meals.

 

[Mikos_Mom]

Btw, I had the 'privilege' of meeting Brad Pattison at an event about a month ago. I was completely disgusted with him, it makes me sick that he's a 'public figure.' He was so completely inappropriate that a number of people walked out after he began speaking on stage and he will not be invited back to the venue. That man should not be interacting with the public, let alone 'training' animals.

I'll tell you about it some time on FB.

LMAO!!! I can't stand that guy... Oh how I can't stand that guy!! He's not fit to interact with humans OR dogs imho!! Having said that... I actually quite like Cesar Milan... so that just gives you an idea of how disgusting Brad must me if I like Cesar but can't stand Brad!