SheltieChe
Forums Sage
Resource Guarding
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Sorry SheltieChe, but I know what I'm talking about, and I'm the one who's actually seen/experienced the dog's behaviour. Whether or not the dog is resource guarding in your opinion is completely irrelevant to me - the label is not up for discussion, nor is whether I choose to acknowledge that my dog has this issue. You see it as labelling, I see it as being a knowledgable, realistic, responsible owner who is working on a solution.
I appreciate your suggestion of the BAT training - it is complimentary to the LAT training I already do.
Yes, I've worked extensively with staging - you may have noticed on another part of the thread where I mentioned my dog differentiates between working and informal mode, which makes staging much more difficult. This may a later step - a few weeks down the road.
However, right now I am working on the root of the problem - that the dog feels like it is in charge, and in a position to guard me. Any time someone has a dog which displays aggressive behaviour, the first thing they need to look at is what is going on in the home - in my case, I recognize that I have given my dog too many freedoms around the house, and I am in the process of correcting this. BAT, LAT, distraction, and avoidance of situations will train a dog not to react, but it doesn't solve the big problem - that the dog thought it had the right to react that way in the first place. That's what I need to solve - the rest is helpful, but it doesn't actually solve the root problem.
I appreciate your suggestion of the BAT training - it is complimentary to the LAT training I already do.
Yes, I've worked extensively with staging - you may have noticed on another part of the thread where I mentioned my dog differentiates between working and informal mode, which makes staging much more difficult. This may a later step - a few weeks down the road.
However, right now I am working on the root of the problem - that the dog feels like it is in charge, and in a position to guard me. Any time someone has a dog which displays aggressive behaviour, the first thing they need to look at is what is going on in the home - in my case, I recognize that I have given my dog too many freedoms around the house, and I am in the process of correcting this. BAT, LAT, distraction, and avoidance of situations will train a dog not to react, but it doesn't solve the big problem - that the dog thought it had the right to react that way in the first place. That's what I need to solve - the rest is helpful, but it doesn't actually solve the root problem.
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So - to summarize - routines I've changed around my house are:
The dog is:
1. No longer allowed on any type of furniture other than in the kennels or on the dog beds.
2. Expected to work for absolutely every privilege - including going in and out of the house, into the SUV, getting fed, having the leash put on, etc.
3. Exercise has been increased (doubled - soon all of my other dogs may start faking behaviour problems just so the amount of exercise keeps increasing
).
4. I tried hand feeding, but he wasn't eating enough. He's very thin as it is - I don't want him losing any weight, so for now we've settled on having him sit before I fill the food bowl. I may give hand feeding another attempt depending on how this week goes.
5. We're avoiding situations which may cause a reaction for now - no chance to be around other dogs who are off leash, and when we see another dog on our walks, I'm putting him into "work mode".
6. Increased work - I've been slacking off lately (June was an extremely busy month for me), and I feel like he hasn't gotten the mental stimulation he craves. Lots of work, lots of positive reinforcement - confidence is definitely an issue, so positive reinforcement is essential with him.
So far he seems a bit confused - I don't think I'll get a true idea of his progress for at least a week. I'll update then.
The dog is:
1. No longer allowed on any type of furniture other than in the kennels or on the dog beds.
2. Expected to work for absolutely every privilege - including going in and out of the house, into the SUV, getting fed, having the leash put on, etc.
3. Exercise has been increased (doubled - soon all of my other dogs may start faking behaviour problems just so the amount of exercise keeps increasing
).4. I tried hand feeding, but he wasn't eating enough. He's very thin as it is - I don't want him losing any weight, so for now we've settled on having him sit before I fill the food bowl. I may give hand feeding another attempt depending on how this week goes.
5. We're avoiding situations which may cause a reaction for now - no chance to be around other dogs who are off leash, and when we see another dog on our walks, I'm putting him into "work mode".
6. Increased work - I've been slacking off lately (June was an extremely busy month for me), and I feel like he hasn't gotten the mental stimulation he craves. Lots of work, lots of positive reinforcement - confidence is definitely an issue, so positive reinforcement is essential with him.
So far he seems a bit confused - I don't think I'll get a true idea of his progress for at least a week. I'll update then.
Caro
Moderator
Interesting about the black labs. I know mine aren't keen on black labs but that's because they get squashed by the bouncy ones next door. I have heard that dogs have a harder time reading signals from black dogs.
Does he have a 'type' of dog he tends to go after? Atm I've got a terror-terrier and a fear-aggressive BC I'm working with and the most noticeable difference is the terrier will go after anything his own size, whereas the BC will only go after dogs it knows will not bite back (regardless of size). Personally I think the BC is probably more redeemable.
Good luck with the program - sounds like you have everything under control. You're right about removing the stressers for a while until he has settled into the new routine. Hopefully the other dogs will decide it's way too much work just for an extra walk!
Does he have a 'type' of dog he tends to go after? Atm I've got a terror-terrier and a fear-aggressive BC I'm working with and the most noticeable difference is the terrier will go after anything his own size, whereas the BC will only go after dogs it knows will not bite back (regardless of size). Personally I think the BC is probably more redeemable.
Good luck with the program - sounds like you have everything under control. You're right about removing the stressers for a while until he has settled into the new routine. Hopefully the other dogs will decide it's way too much work just for an extra walk!
SheltieChe
Forums Sage
You seems to be doing right things to help with your dog reactivity. Unfortunately, reactive dog will always be reactive dog. You can not train out reactivity from the dog. Just does not happen. So it mostly leads to management issues. It is like telling dog "I am not asking you to like and get along with every dog you meet, I am asking you to stay with me and offer me responses I want."
Reactive Rover or Growl classes if they offered often helpful.
Reactive Rover or Growl classes if they offered often helpful.
Toffee's Mom
Forums Sage
hrm, what a conundrum...
Have you tried other handlers you trust handling him?
And ye olde clicker for passive attention?
Toffee also resource guards me but he's a less extreme case than yours and clicker training passive attention has helped a lot.
The not permissive things you're doing also seem like a good idea, let us know how it's going!
Have you tried other handlers you trust handling him?
And ye olde clicker for passive attention?
Toffee also resource guards me but he's a less extreme case than yours and clicker training passive attention has helped a lot.
The not permissive things you're doing also seem like a good idea, let us know how it's going!
It's absolutely amazing what some added structure can do.
We've gone back to being a structured household for approximately a week now, and there has been a massive change in my dog's attitude:
The barking that he used to do at dogs/distractions outside has decreased by about 80% - 90% - I actually went outside on Day 4 to see if he had escaped the yard since I'm so used to hearing him bark!!!
His recalls were always decent, but now I can call him off of things that I had trouble calling him off of in the past (ie. dog next door barking at him).
We're using my friend's/fellow trainer's dog as a "yardstick". Last week when he met up with her, he wouldn't let her near me. He growled and snapped multiple times, and his body language was very aggressive (fairly typical response for him). We met up again this week - same location, same time of day - he greeted her politely, and although he stressed a bit when she kept insisting on coming to see me, his stress signals were minor compared to last week. He growled a little bit (a couple seconds) at about the 4 minute mark (right before we recalled them), but there was no snapping and his body language was much more relaxed than last week (although not completely relaxed by any means). He finished in a happy, workable frame of mind.
He has more of an issue if they are larger than him (even by half an inch), and he does seem to have a hard time reading the body language of black dogs. Unaltered males can also be a problem (he is also unaltered).
So far he's making some pretty significant gains - it's not just about training, it's also about creating a structured environment which helps the dog understand it's place in the household. Whenever there's a behaviour problem, I don't just look at how to solve it/train it - I also look extensively at why it happened in the first place. Training is helpful, but it's a reactive response when you're talking about behaviour issues, while I feel it's much more important to be proactive (80% proactive, 20% reactive). I'll keep this thread updated to let you know whether or not we're successful.
Next Steps:
Proactive:
I'm obviously going to continue with the structure, but I'm also adding in long sit stays/down stays. This is really good for self control and confidence on the dog's part.
Reactive
We're going to head to a bench on a popular walking path, and follow the principles of LAT training. The goal will be to have him relaxed as other dogs are moving by. I'm hoping that if I'm sitting on a bench relaxing, he won't go into work mode the way he likely would if I was standing. Positive reinforcement only, of course
If everything goes well, I'm going to use ToffeeMom's suggestion, and have another handler hold his leash while I go out of sight. I did this a few weeks ago and he threw a sheltie-tantrum (although he eventually sucked it up), so it would be a helpful gauge as well.
So those are our goals for this week....
We've gone back to being a structured household for approximately a week now, and there has been a massive change in my dog's attitude:
The barking that he used to do at dogs/distractions outside has decreased by about 80% - 90% - I actually went outside on Day 4 to see if he had escaped the yard since I'm so used to hearing him bark!!!
His recalls were always decent, but now I can call him off of things that I had trouble calling him off of in the past (ie. dog next door barking at him).
We're using my friend's/fellow trainer's dog as a "yardstick". Last week when he met up with her, he wouldn't let her near me. He growled and snapped multiple times, and his body language was very aggressive (fairly typical response for him). We met up again this week - same location, same time of day - he greeted her politely, and although he stressed a bit when she kept insisting on coming to see me, his stress signals were minor compared to last week. He growled a little bit (a couple seconds) at about the 4 minute mark (right before we recalled them), but there was no snapping and his body language was much more relaxed than last week (although not completely relaxed by any means). He finished in a happy, workable frame of mind.
He has more of an issue if they are larger than him (even by half an inch), and he does seem to have a hard time reading the body language of black dogs. Unaltered males can also be a problem (he is also unaltered).
So far he's making some pretty significant gains - it's not just about training, it's also about creating a structured environment which helps the dog understand it's place in the household. Whenever there's a behaviour problem, I don't just look at how to solve it/train it - I also look extensively at why it happened in the first place. Training is helpful, but it's a reactive response when you're talking about behaviour issues, while I feel it's much more important to be proactive (80% proactive, 20% reactive). I'll keep this thread updated to let you know whether or not we're successful.
Next Steps:
Proactive:
I'm obviously going to continue with the structure, but I'm also adding in long sit stays/down stays. This is really good for self control and confidence on the dog's part.
Reactive
We're going to head to a bench on a popular walking path, and follow the principles of LAT training. The goal will be to have him relaxed as other dogs are moving by. I'm hoping that if I'm sitting on a bench relaxing, he won't go into work mode the way he likely would if I was standing. Positive reinforcement only, of course
If everything goes well, I'm going to use ToffeeMom's suggestion, and have another handler hold his leash while I go out of sight. I did this a few weeks ago and he threw a sheltie-tantrum (although he eventually sucked it up), so it would be a helpful gauge as well.
So those are our goals for this week....
k9kreationz
Forums Celebrity
It sounds like things are working out well. Yay!
I was wondering if you'd be willing to expand on what you're doing. Although I'm pretty sure Koji doesn't have a resource guarding issue, I figured since it sounds like structure worked for you, and I'm trying to get some back, I'd pick your brain.
How did you get him to NOT sleep on the bed or couch? And how do you not allow the cuteness to get to you? lol.
Can you expand on what you do? I mean, what is "work"? For example, I am not making Koji sit before we go out, however, I think he associates sit with getting fed and running agility, so it actually makes him more alert. I usually wait him out until his body shows that he's relaxed. Thoughts? Should I try something else?
What does hand feeding do? Would doing NILIF work as well?
I do need to work on his agility training more, so that should be "working more".
I was wondering if you'd be willing to expand on what you're doing. Although I'm pretty sure Koji doesn't have a resource guarding issue, I figured since it sounds like structure worked for you, and I'm trying to get some back, I'd pick your brain.
How did you get him to NOT sleep on the bed or couch? And how do you not allow the cuteness to get to you? lol.
Can you expand on what you do? I mean, what is "work"? For example, I am not making Koji sit before we go out, however, I think he associates sit with getting fed and running agility, so it actually makes him more alert. I usually wait him out until his body shows that he's relaxed. Thoughts? Should I try something else?
What does hand feeding do? Would doing NILIF work as well?
I do need to work on his agility training more, so that should be "working more".
Yeah, the cute factor killed me. This is honestly really important, and I was going against everything I know when I started letting him sleep on the bed
. It was hard for me too, because he loves cuddling up against my back, and he's so darn cute. I had to do it with gentle firmness and positive reinforcement - that's the only way I could keep him off without feeling guilty. Everytime he went up on the bed, I shook my head and gently said no, and then used my body to move into him to claim the bed as my own. Sometimes I would lightly tug on the collar to get him off the bed, and direct him towards his dog bed. I made sure he was always in the same room as me (fairly easy since he follows me everywhere), so I knew what furniture he was on immediately. If I couldn't supervise him, he was in his kennel so he didn't have any opportunity to go on furniture uninvited. It took about 4 days before he stopped trying. I'm sure if he was invited, he'd be back on the furniture in a heartbeat, but I've committed to myself that I'm not going to get into that habit again.Work, for me, is a dog following through on any behaviour I request. Typical work behaviours might include sits, downs, stays, stands, spins, turns, touch hand, heel, wait, back up, shake a paw, circle backwards, jump through my arms, retrieve something, walk on his hind legs, march, etc. It's anything that you've taught your dog, even if you just taught it for fun. It creates a transfer of leadership. For example, a month ago, if my dogs wanted to go outside, I would just open the door, and off they would go. Now, a typical scenario would be they have to drop before I open the door, hold a stay while I step outside to unlatch the screen door, release only when I give the command. While they are out there, I might at some point do a quick recall with a jackpot reward. If I'm out there with them, I might do a quick heel pattern or sit stay or a few tricks so they understand the rules are the same in the backyard as they are in public. When they want back in I might give them the signal to take a few steps backwards or sit before I let them in. Every interaction I have with them now includes work - before I open their kennels they have to sit or drop, and they aren't allowed to step out until I release them. They have to do a trick before I fill the food bowl, or do a stay as I fill it. It sounds really complicated, but it's not. It adds about 10 - 30 seconds each time I add work into my routine. The hardest thing is ensuring it becomes a habit - I have to constantly remind myself, but it's already getting close to automatic.
Handfeeding is a great tool. The idea is that it ensures the dog knows the food is coming from you - the bowl doesn't automatically fill up on it's own. You are a foodsource, therefore you have value. As I mentioned in a previous post, I found my dog didn't eat enough with hand feeding. Instead, I've started to run my hand through his dog food when it's in the bowl - that way my scent is still there with the food, so he makes that association. Whenever I have a major behavioural problem with a dog I'm training, I tell the owner to start handfeeding - many of them noticed a difference in their dogs behaviour within a few days.
I love NILIF, when used in a modified format and with a lot of common sense by people who have their dogs' best interest at heart. Some people advocate an extreme of NILIF that I would say borderlines on abuse. Most of the steps I described in my first weeks goals would be considered part of a modified NILIF program.
Absolutely! It doesn't have to be formal obedience - it can be agility work, rally work, treibball work, freestyle work, tricks....Kikopup on Youtube has a lot of fantastic little tricks you can teach your dog just to keep them mentally stimulated.
I hope this helped! PM me if you have any questions
k9kreationz
Forums Celebrity
Thank you for that write up. That helps a lot. I've started with the work for going out the door, but dangit, I'm not consistent (my biggest issue in training - which I'm working on, lol). Gotta be consistent.
Not sure how well the off the bed will go because he jumps up in the middle of the night and I don't even know. I just wake up and I'm like, whoa, hello butt (as in, furry butt in my face). HOWEVER, I think baby steps my work, like me not inviting him up, having him get off when I'm awake and dangit, not moving when he whines at me so he can lie up against me (it's soooo cute though, augh!!! and he even learned if he licks my foot, I pull it away and he can get closer to me, darn smart dogs).
Again, thanks for helping me out.
Not sure how well the off the bed will go because he jumps up in the middle of the night and I don't even know. I just wake up and I'm like, whoa, hello butt (as in, furry butt in my face). HOWEVER, I think baby steps my work, like me not inviting him up, having him get off when I'm awake and dangit, not moving when he whines at me so he can lie up against me (it's soooo cute though, augh!!! and he even learned if he licks my foot, I pull it away and he can get closer to me, darn smart dogs).
Again, thanks for helping me out.