SheepOfBlue
Premium Member
You might still have been OK, there is more too his back ground (NOT abusive).
Speed and Drive: genes or training?
- Thread starter cmae
- Start date
2GoodDogs
Forums Enthusiast
I've found it really interesting in our foundations of agility class, there are three shelties. One from famous conformation lines, a gorgeous boy, but slow and plodding and only doing the jumps to be polite. Hardly any speed, or drive to agility. Then there is the zippy one, does everything at warp speed and practically vibrates when standing still, cow hocked and sparse coat ...
and then there's Flyer. Focused, fast, fun and obedient... but can get a crazy gleam in his eye and jumps all over me, grabbing my pants, my sleeve... barking... nipping... until I give him a command to down, and then I usually get my good dog back. He's the first of my 3 shelties to have crazy herding behaviors, a product of Ch. sire and Justus' sister...
and then there's Flyer. Focused, fast, fun and obedient... but can get a crazy gleam in his eye and jumps all over me, grabbing my pants, my sleeve... barking... nipping... until I give him a command to down, and then I usually get my good dog back. He's the first of my 3 shelties to have crazy herding behaviors, a product of Ch. sire and Justus' sister...
Jess041
Forums Enthusiast
Missy is from a conformation breeder. I honestly have no idea if her structure is good or not, but I figure it's okay since she's one of, if not the fastest Shelties in NAFA. Clearly she can run and jump very well. She's incredibly drivey and fast. I think if she had gone to an experienced agility home, she would have been fantastic. She got stuck with me, who's just learning as we go.
I am determined that my next Sheltie will come from a breeder that breeds for both conformation and performance. I want a dog with good structure and the same drive that Missy has. Some Shelties just aren't interested in flyball. It's not their thing. The qualities Shelli mentioned are equally important in flyball and I will be looking for a puppy with those qualities. And hopefully since I know a little more about agility than I did before I got Missy, I can provide a good agility foundation. If I get a puppy who's very drivey but flyball isn't their thing, I'm open to agility or other activities.
Kinda off topic- When I heard about people who would spend thousands of dollars cloning their pets, I thought it was ridiculous. But now, I wouldn't mind a Missy clone! Or an Enzo clone lol. I'm a bit biased, but I think Missy is an awesome dog and has set the bar very high for any future dogs!
I am determined that my next Sheltie will come from a breeder that breeds for both conformation and performance. I want a dog with good structure and the same drive that Missy has. Some Shelties just aren't interested in flyball. It's not their thing. The qualities Shelli mentioned are equally important in flyball and I will be looking for a puppy with those qualities. And hopefully since I know a little more about agility than I did before I got Missy, I can provide a good agility foundation. If I get a puppy who's very drivey but flyball isn't their thing, I'm open to agility or other activities.
Kinda off topic- When I heard about people who would spend thousands of dollars cloning their pets, I thought it was ridiculous. But now, I wouldn't mind a Missy clone! Or an Enzo clone lol. I'm a bit biased, but I think Missy is an awesome dog and has set the bar very high for any future dogs!
Caro
Moderator
I got Tully because she showed drive from the get go. I was further down the wait list with a particular local breeder - wasn't expecting a pup until the following year. But she rang and said one of the pups was showing so much drive she preferred the pup went to an active home rather than conformation. I'd said I wanted a pup to do agility with. So certainly I think a long time breeder can identify pups with drive pretty early on. Tully was running before she could walk.
There is a downside to a pup with that much drive. Tully was quite a handful and such a change from my previous Shelties. She wants to chase everything and needs to run, run, run, she has 2 speeds - asleep and warp. It was a steep learning curve working out how to handle her. Instead of teaching drive I had to teach 'undrive'. Deska on the other hand didn't have so much drive. He did great with flyball (even with his bad elbows) and would run fast, agility he was pretty silly (could have been the elbows though) and on the flat he can actually outrun, but he just doesn't have that same need for speed, and doesn't have that unnerving energy that never stops.
So yes I do think hyper-drive is in the genes. It is possible to teach a dog drive but it won't be the same as a hyper-drive dog. I also think, like some shelties have hyper-drive, some have no drive.
Btw - just a thought but maybe look for a female. I've seen more drive in female shelties than males.
There is a downside to a pup with that much drive. Tully was quite a handful and such a change from my previous Shelties. She wants to chase everything and needs to run, run, run, she has 2 speeds - asleep and warp. It was a steep learning curve working out how to handle her. Instead of teaching drive I had to teach 'undrive'. Deska on the other hand didn't have so much drive. He did great with flyball (even with his bad elbows) and would run fast, agility he was pretty silly (could have been the elbows though) and on the flat he can actually outrun, but he just doesn't have that same need for speed, and doesn't have that unnerving energy that never stops.
So yes I do think hyper-drive is in the genes. It is possible to teach a dog drive but it won't be the same as a hyper-drive dog. I also think, like some shelties have hyper-drive, some have no drive.
Btw - just a thought but maybe look for a female. I've seen more drive in female shelties than males.
Cara Sandler
Forums Enthusiast
My Spirit has a lot of drive but also has an off switch. She's really the perfect combination. When she needs to chill out, she's able to do so - but when she has a job to do, she is completely focused, full of drive, and completely serious. When it's playtime she's silly. I REALLY hope I'll be able to get another puppy from her line eventually because they just have such wonderful temperaments.
k9kreationz
Forums Celebrity
Oh good point! I never really thought about this, but it's so true. I have seen Koji smack into a jump and as me and the judge are worried about him, he's barking at me to run, run mom run! LOL.
Fascinating topic and very interesting responses. Neither of my youngsters were purchased with agility in mind but I've struck lucky twice. Both are from conformation breeding, but Epic has unusually high drive - even BC people are impressed. However with him it has come at a price because that degree of intensity is present all the time, he is a very 'on' dog and I've had to work extremely hard to get impulse control. Added to this is his fear aggression which has also taken years of behaviour modification work to get to an acceptable point. It is ongoing too. I have been asked about using him at stud by people who admire his drive but there is no way I would want to be responsible for more dogs with his temperament. It is a challenge to live with, although he is a dog of a lifetime I would never have coped had he been my first or even second dog.
Angus is just as quick as Epic on the flat, so has the speed. He doesn't have the intensity though so I am working with him at building drive through a very high rate of reinforcement. In terms of build, they are structurally very similar, Angus has a longer stride (better hind angulation) and more fluidity but there is little in it. Both have super fronts which is something to be valued as many shelties are much straighter in the shoulder and have very upright pasterns. Angus has a much better temperament, although excitable he is not reactive and that is a pleasure.
I won't be getting a pup hopefully for many years yet but JusticeMom's blueprint is the one I will try and get
One thing I am immensely grateful for is that while barky in every day life, neither of mine bark incessantly when doing agility. Epic sometimes barks through frustration but there isn't the constant noise some dogs make when they are running. As a trait that would put me off, however good the breeding was in other respects.
You may find this of interest:
http://baddogagility.com/episode-117-drive-for-agility-three-aspects-of-agility-training-part-2/
Angus is just as quick as Epic on the flat, so has the speed. He doesn't have the intensity though so I am working with him at building drive through a very high rate of reinforcement. In terms of build, they are structurally very similar, Angus has a longer stride (better hind angulation) and more fluidity but there is little in it. Both have super fronts which is something to be valued as many shelties are much straighter in the shoulder and have very upright pasterns. Angus has a much better temperament, although excitable he is not reactive and that is a pleasure.
I won't be getting a pup hopefully for many years yet but JusticeMom's blueprint is the one I will try and get
One thing I am immensely grateful for is that while barky in every day life, neither of mine bark incessantly when doing agility. Epic sometimes barks through frustration but there isn't the constant noise some dogs make when they are running. As a trait that would put me off, however good the breeding was in other respects.
You may find this of interest:
http://baddogagility.com/episode-117-drive-for-agility-three-aspects-of-agility-training-part-2/
Cara Sandler
Forums Enthusiast
Spirit doesn't bark when she does agility, but she makes the most adorable little grunting noise when she gets excited. She grunts while she runs and when she's playing with good friends.
Justicemom
Forums Celebrity
None of my dogs have barked while running agility except Diva and that was usually tell me off for my bad handling. If my handling was good, not a peep so I know I did my job.
Justice and Ember had training in obedience prior to agility so I can't say for certain that that didn't play a role but Birch and Celtic are naturally quiet. Not a sound when working. Birch has stated barking at the end like in celerbration. 2 or 3 times that's it when I celebrate our run with him. It is really cute.
Justice and Ember had training in obedience prior to agility so I can't say for certain that that didn't play a role but Birch and Celtic are naturally quiet. Not a sound when working. Birch has stated barking at the end like in celerbration. 2 or 3 times that's it when I celebrate our run with him. It is really cute.
Have to agree with the others. Certainly a combination of the two, but I believe genetics lays the important foundation that you'll have to work with. My older Sheltie is from conformation lines exclusively and quite honestly, she's a little "slow" in the brains department. No toy drive, no instinct, but she's very pretty!! She makes a wonderful therapy dog and is pointed in conformation so I know she's built properly, but agility is exhausting because of the need to cheer her on the whole time.
When I went looking for a puppy, I went to a performance breeder in Canada who's active in agility, obedience and conformation. The pup I got from her is DRIVE defined and naughty, beautifully built (could have shown in conformation if not 1/4" too tall and his ears were done) but also has a wonderful off switch. I did a lot of impulse control training and chase games etc. with him as a pup (he's almost 2 now) which I'm sure made a difference, but the willingness to please, thinking brain, functional structure and working ability is credit to his breeder. I just encouraged it! And boy, he's going to give me a real run for my money. My one gripe is that he can be noise and environmentally sensitive, but the GOOD news is...if there's agility equipment or sheep in front of him, he could care less about anything else.
I'd rather have just a bit too much drive and have to tone it down with impulse control and clear communication than not enough. So I think it's important to look for a line that has it and then choose the pup based on its personality, intelligence, willingness to engage and structure. Just based on my own experience!
When I went looking for a puppy, I went to a performance breeder in Canada who's active in agility, obedience and conformation. The pup I got from her is DRIVE defined and naughty, beautifully built (could have shown in conformation if not 1/4" too tall and his ears were done) but also has a wonderful off switch. I did a lot of impulse control training and chase games etc. with him as a pup (he's almost 2 now) which I'm sure made a difference, but the willingness to please, thinking brain, functional structure and working ability is credit to his breeder. I just encouraged it! And boy, he's going to give me a real run for my money. My one gripe is that he can be noise and environmentally sensitive, but the GOOD news is...if there's agility equipment or sheep in front of him, he could care less about anything else.
I'd rather have just a bit too much drive and have to tone it down with impulse control and clear communication than not enough. So I think it's important to look for a line that has it and then choose the pup based on its personality, intelligence, willingness to engage and structure. Just based on my own experience!