Hi everyone, I came here specifically looking for advice on start line stays. I have an 11 month old Sheltie that will be competing in agility when older and he has the sloppiest stays I've ever seen. By that I mean his feet will not stop moving...which in a start line situation leads to him shifting to face another obstacle etc. especially when leading out laterally. So I'm taking the equipment out of the equation and will be working on solid four square stays. Has anyone ever had to reteach a sit stay? Where do I even start? I was thinking of starting him on a raised platform, toes on the edge but even then he's lifting his feet and drumming. Haha I've inadvertently created a monster and now I need to fix it!! Any advice?
Start Line Foundations!
- Thread starter BiFire
- Start date
labgirl
Forums Sage
Do you have him waiting in a stand, sit or a down?
Downs or sits are usually easier to teach a dog to hold plus, though it may surprise you (because it did me!) they enable a dog to take off a lot faster than a wait from a stand.
My spaniel Sparrow has a normally very good wait, but when on the startline she starts to shuffle or try to take off before I am ready. So I am now working hard on this.
Firstly I put her in a down and I am reinforcing the wait, but walking away then going back and rewarding, then walk away, go back, etc. So she gets the idea that the wait is good, but also her reward for it is not necessarily starting the course.
Equally, I don't release her until I am happy with the position/wait she is in. So if she moves forward I replace her.
Next I am working on length of stay rather than the distance I can walk away from her (learned from my obedience class). At the moment I may not even go as far as the first obstacle before releasing her. I want that wait solid, the distance can come later. Being nearer means I can correct her faster and I reduce the risk of her breaking the wait and taking the first jump or obstacle and self-rewarding for the lapsed wait. I do vary distances, however, and also the side of the obstacle I walk off on.
I have a lot of work to do with Sparrow to get my waits solid and consistent, but it will be worth it in the end. Building them up slowly is the key. You could try working on waits with a single obstacle before testing them on a course-load of equipment.
Hope that helps, I am in the same boat as you at the moment and at times it is
Downs or sits are usually easier to teach a dog to hold plus, though it may surprise you (because it did me!) they enable a dog to take off a lot faster than a wait from a stand.
My spaniel Sparrow has a normally very good wait, but when on the startline she starts to shuffle or try to take off before I am ready. So I am now working hard on this.
Firstly I put her in a down and I am reinforcing the wait, but walking away then going back and rewarding, then walk away, go back, etc. So she gets the idea that the wait is good, but also her reward for it is not necessarily starting the course.
Equally, I don't release her until I am happy with the position/wait she is in. So if she moves forward I replace her.
Next I am working on length of stay rather than the distance I can walk away from her (learned from my obedience class). At the moment I may not even go as far as the first obstacle before releasing her. I want that wait solid, the distance can come later. Being nearer means I can correct her faster and I reduce the risk of her breaking the wait and taking the first jump or obstacle and self-rewarding for the lapsed wait. I do vary distances, however, and also the side of the obstacle I walk off on.
I have a lot of work to do with Sparrow to get my waits solid and consistent, but it will be worth it in the end. Building them up slowly is the key. You could try working on waits with a single obstacle before testing them on a course-load of equipment.
Hope that helps, I am in the same boat as you at the moment and at times it is
Yes, so frustrating! He is in a sit stay at the start line. He has never truly broken a startline stay (meaning he hasn't taken the first obstacle without a release), at least so far. He's a pretty honest puppy. What I don't want is for this drumming and "itchiness" to escalate and turn into a pattern of breaking stays down the road. It's mainly the rotation that irks me. If I set him up with his toes pointing at the tunnel for example and he shifts to point at the closest jump instead as I lead out, guess which obstacle he'll take? Right now I can go back and fix it, but later on...well, you know! I'll probably go back to a single jump and vary my position as you've suggested. But I'm hoping there's a better way of helping him understand that stay means feet on the floor in the direction I've set you up. LOL That way I can attribute his movement to being naughty rather than a lack of understanding.
Calliesmom
Moderator
so in obedience, people use this thing called a front box to get the dog to line up in perfect front position when they are called in to the handler. you could use the same concept (basically a pvc rectangle, open on one end for the dog to enter) and have the dog sit in the box with the feet touching the pvc bar in front of the dog. you can make it just wide enough to fit your dog so that if the dog moves, it will be on the pvc instead of inside it. that might help to get the concept across of sit here and don't move.............
Silaria
Forums Sage
When I'm working with my agility students on start line stays we always start with the dog in a basic stay at heel in front of a jump. I don't particularly care if it's a sit, down or stand. (I use a stand myself; why goes back to struggles in early trials.)
If the dog doesn't move for 3-5 seconds (depending on the dog), including shifting feet, the dog gets a reward. If the dog moves, the handler just waits until the dog settles as is still for the requested time. We work on increasing this time, of course.
Once the dog is holding a stay with the handler at heel, we have the handler start to move away one to two steps at a time. Keep in mind, this is all "in general" because each dog is different. The handler will move away, count to 3-5 seconds, and return to the dog to treat them. If the dog moves, a non-reward marker, such as an Ah!, and the count starts again.
The key to the entire process being only reward the behavior you want. Correct/ignore the rest but reward what you want. Clickers are great for marking the behavior but a yes or other marker will do just as well.
The other key is patience, patience, patience. Your dog is only 11 months old and is still subject to "puppy brain". Be sure you're not expecting too much too quickly from him. That doesn't mean don't train the start line stay, it means don't necessarily expect a puppy to hold the stay for more than a few seconds.
If the dog doesn't move for 3-5 seconds (depending on the dog), including shifting feet, the dog gets a reward. If the dog moves, the handler just waits until the dog settles as is still for the requested time. We work on increasing this time, of course.
Once the dog is holding a stay with the handler at heel, we have the handler start to move away one to two steps at a time. Keep in mind, this is all "in general" because each dog is different. The handler will move away, count to 3-5 seconds, and return to the dog to treat them. If the dog moves, a non-reward marker, such as an Ah!, and the count starts again.
The key to the entire process being only reward the behavior you want. Correct/ignore the rest but reward what you want. Clickers are great for marking the behavior but a yes or other marker will do just as well.
The other key is patience, patience, patience. Your dog is only 11 months old and is still subject to "puppy brain". Be sure you're not expecting too much too quickly from him. That doesn't mean don't train the start line stay, it means don't necessarily expect a puppy to hold the stay for more than a few seconds.
ClantyreSheltie
Forums Sage
Distance, Duration, Distraction.
You can only change one of these three things at a time during training. Start with a short distance (standing next to the dog), for a short time, with no distractions. When that is mastered, you may increase time (but not distance or distraction). Then you can add something else, but only one thing at a time.
It all comes down to basic obedience.
You can only change one of these three things at a time during training. Start with a short distance (standing next to the dog), for a short time, with no distractions. When that is mastered, you may increase time (but not distance or distraction). Then you can add something else, but only one thing at a time.
It all comes down to basic obedience.