Students teaching

[JLSOhio51]

Kind of off-topic, but... I've been in classes with TAs who were far and away better instructors than the professor, and sometimes more up-to-date on the topics .

Celloyogi:

This is sort of what I was thinking when I suggested that a new (novice) dog trainer might (reemphasize might) be OK in some ways in place of a long time trainer depending on the level and emphasis of the specific class. The novice may have assisted an outstanding trainer for years and is just now branching out on his/her own. The trainer may have years of training of his/her own animals and is now getting into training other's dogs. But being new could just as easily be a negative due to inexperience. As I said, I would think it is situational.

Years ago I was a TA for two semesters for a Purdue Univ. Business department professor teaching a course on Industrial Safety. After reading the review documents following my 1st semester, the professor (who had spent all of his training in Industrial Safety as an academic while I was in an industrial facillity) sat in on my class to pick up tips from me. My 3rd semester, I was certified to teach the class with full credentials.

 

[HopeShelties]

I don't think someone has to have a mach, but they do need to have been doing it long enough to have developed good training methods, and a good eye.
I do know you don't have to be at the top to be a great teacher. I was a horseback riding instructor, and assistant trainer for many years. I never trained a world champion, nor did I win a ribbon at worlds, but I was a good instructor. However, it was from being a student of saddle seat equitation and training for many years. But then the reasoning I never did those things, saddlebreds are so different... it's all about the money. It isn't about being a skilled rider so much. How much money you pay for the horse has direct impact on your success, as the horse who can trot the highest and set its head the best typically wins, and the better they can do those things, the more they cost. Often beginners are put on push button big moving horses and win not because of their skill but because of the horse carrying itself (these horses are worth big $$$$$$). So, unless you're wealthy, it takes a lot of luck to purchase a good one as a baby out of the field and hope it turns out, or to buy a dangerous one who can use itself and fix it... anyhow...
Yes, I could've taught a kid the basics of posting and guiding as a novice when I started out, but I couldn't have taught them the finer points of equitation. I couldn't have taught them about impulsion, collection, extension, leg and hand cues, proper use of a whip, how to develop soft hands, or how to use the bridle to get the best from the horse. I also didn't have the eye as a beginner to see the picture, and pick apart little things that can take a good team and make them a great team.
That is the difference between being a novice and teaching and being an experienced person and teaching. No, not everyone who is experienced is a good teacher, but a person with a gift for teaching can do so much more for a person when they know more than when they are inexperienced themselves.
So then, when there are options out there where one is a good, experienced instructor who knows their stuff, and the other is a newbie who is just grasping the basics themselves, why would you even consider the newbie? Even for fun, it is money better spent going to someone who knows what they are doing than someone who doesn't know enough.

 

[HopeShelties]

The novice may have assisted an outstanding trainer for years and is just now branching out on his/her own. The trainer may have years of training of his/her own animals and is now getting into training other's dogs.

That's the thing though. We're not talking novice as in new to instructing. We are talking about new to agility in general. Someone new to teaching, yes, may be fine. Someone new to the sport of agility in general, no.

 

[Sharon]

Student Teachers

There is lot more going into teaching quality foundation class than putting MACH or whatever other title on your dog that this does not come into my consideration at all.

You got that right but I would rather have the person who has the MACH teaching me than Novice people.The MACH person is the one who did all the right foundations and has done her homework.When I see one of them in the ring and the dog is bailing from the seesaw or the other one who can't get her dog to do the weaves with out doing the weave pole dance or bopping them in with their hips they haven't done their homework.So that being said I would spend my money elsewhere!!!!!@

 

[SheltieChe]

Agree with you there. Why does one go to teacher? Because they like what teacher has and what teacher can offer to share/teach/educate. If I see a brilliant by nature gifted person who is still new to things but has a way with animals, you bet I want to have what they have and learn what they know.
If a person can not teach their own dog how to demo great obstacle skills there is no chance they can teach it to me and my dog...

 

[Toffee's Mom]

That's the thing though. We're not talking novice as in new to instructing. We are talking about new to agility in general. Someone new to teaching, yes, may be fine. Someone new to the sport of agility in general, no.

YEP, agreed
I wouldn't take classes from a novice student, not for agility!
One can mess up the foundations SO bad and not even know it, then one gets to the competitive level and finds you need to untrain what you been taught incorrectly... and start again... and it is way harder to undo then to do it right from the beginning with a long term goal in mind...

 

[celloyogi]

YEP, agreed
I wouldn't take classes from a novice student, not for agility!
One can mess up the foundations SO bad and not even know it, then one gets to the competitive level and finds you need to untrain what you been taught incorrectly... and start again... and it is way harder to undo then to do it right from the beginning with a long term goal in mind...

I was always told (and have of course now passed on to my own cello students) that it takes seven times of playing something correctly to unlearn having learned it incorrectly. Such a waste of time when with proper instruction and careful practice, technique can and should be learned correctly the first time around! I can only imagine how many times over that seven is increased when it includes a dog. For the handler, maybe it's seven times to relearn how to cue or something but then the dog has to adjust, too.

A good teacher should be able to spot potential problems before they happen or at the least, very soon after the problem starts, and then be able to customize a solution to each student. I love getting cello students "from scratch", meaning never having touched a cello before or right after they start in K-12 school, because I can set up their foundation right from the start instead of having to spend weeks and months fixing problems. It's easier and less frustrating for everyone; I can only imagine how those feelings are multiplied when a dog enters the picture.

 

[SheltieChe]

TThe MACH person is the one who did all the right foundations and has done her homework

mmm, that has not been my experience- observation...
Also outside of volunteer club where everyone is ok to teach if they want to I have not seen situation you have described above. Specially in the areas where there are tons and tons of experienced people and plenty of classes to choose from so I would really doubt we know all info how it came about for inexperienced novices to teach class.
Out of people who have put MACH or appr titles on their dogs I have seen teachers who are
-outright rude and have low tolerance for people mistakes
-always blame the dog
-could care less what they teach you as they teach only to satisfy whatever perks they get from offering classes i.e. privates, free rental space, free entry to trials etc
-allow people to create cliques in the class and gossip about recent trials, who got which dog from which line and other ¨hot¨topics
- not being able to read other people dogs and most statements go ¨with my breed I do this, with your breed you do this or with this size dog I do this etc¨
- make statements to the degree ¨I always teach rear cross this way!¨
-have slow-ish dogs and make their titles more by persistence than by outright quality of their training
- rude to their dogs

Any of it and all of it would preclude me from ever taking classes from those people.
I have met absolutely amazing teachers locally and on line and for most part I still do not know what exact titles they have on their dogs, just not something I would put as high priority when choosing the teacher.

 

[Sharon]

mmm, that has not been my experience- observation...
Also outside of volunteer club where everyone is ok to teach if they want to I have not seen situation you have described above. Specially in the areas where there are tons and tons of experienced people and plenty of classes to choose from so I would really doubt we know all info how it came about for inexperienced novices to teach class.
Out of people who have put MACH or appr titles on their dogs I have seen teachers who are
-outright rude and have low tolerance for people mistakes
-always blame the dog
-could care less what they teach you as they teach only to satisfy whatever perks they get from offering classes i.e. privates, free rental space, free entry to trials etc
-allow people to create cliques in the class and gossip about recent trials, who got which dog from which line and other ¨hot¨topics
- not being able to read other people dogs and most statements go ¨with my breed I do this, with your breed you do this or with this size dog I do this etc¨
- make statements to the degree ¨I always teach rear cross this way!¨
-have slow-ish dogs and make their titles more by persistence than by outright quality of their training
- rude to their dogs

Any of it and all of it would preclude me from ever taking classes from those people.
I have met absolutely amazing teachers locally and on line and for most part I still do not know what exact titles they have on their dogs, just not something I would put as high priority when choosing the teacher.

Give me the MACH peron for foundations any day.I don't know what your experiences are in the ring but not everyone is like what you say they are.One of the teachers this weekend could not get their dog through the course.Blew all contacts and bailed on the seesaw and no weaves.NQ MMMMMMMMMM Lessons from them or MACH person.Tuff descison.

 

[Justicemom]

mmm, that has not been my experience- observation...
Also outside of volunteer club where everyone is ok to teach if they want to I have not seen situation you have described above. Specially in the areas where there are tons and tons of experienced people and plenty of classes to choose from so I would really doubt we know all info how it came about for inexperienced novices to teach class.
Out of people who have put MACH or appr titles on their dogs I have seen teachers who are
-outright rude and have low tolerance for people mistakes
-always blame the dog
-could care less what they teach you as they teach only to satisfy whatever perks they get from offering classes i.e. privates, free rental space, free entry to trials etc
-allow people to create cliques in the class and gossip about recent trials, who got which dog from which line and other ¨hot¨topics
- not being able to read other people dogs and most statements go ¨with my breed I do this, with your breed you do this or with this size dog I do this etc¨
- make statements to the degree ¨I always teach rear cross this way!¨
-have slow-ish dogs and make their titles more by persistence than by outright quality of their training
- rude to their dogs

Any of it and all of it would preclude me from ever taking classes from those people.
I have met absolutely amazing teachers locally and on line and for most part I still do not know what exact titles they have on their dogs, just not something I would put as high priority when choosing the teacher.

Funny you just described several of the OTCH handlers that I know who teach. Some of the rudest people I know.

While I agree a complete newbie/Noivce is not likely to have all the skills to teach. A person with a MACH does not automaticly mean they can teach.

My instructor has put multiple OTCH/MACHs on her dogs mostly BC and has the reputation for getting the most out of many dogs of any breed. Sure she is not in the world team group but I like and enjoy her instruction. She keeps up on new trends in competition like a pushes(which I was taught and used this weekend) and the dogs in her classes are competive at trials.

I guess it is what you are looking for and what your goals are. There are schools here who motivated by being the best and at world team level. I don't feel comfortable there. I can't run well and I am not athleticly gifted and frankly don't have all the time in the world to practice everyday. But I enjoy it and so do my dogs. What I don't like is going to a class taught by someone who knows less then I do or who can't explain concepts well. I would have a problem with that.