Teaching take and drop for energetic dog

[Eleonora]

I'm sorry, I get confused with quoting and reposting same question same way, could you rephrase it instead>
If we weren't quite clear in understanding in the beginning we're still not clear if you're saying the same thing exactly the same way again

We have used to do it that way in another forum.

You have understood the first part correctly:

IF I understand correctly one issue is that a toy has more value than the treat, as the dog is not finishing her treats regardless how good they are?
If that is correct I recommend to not let your friend give up, keep trying different things. It just means she hasn't found the golden nugget yet

did she try throwing the treats away from the toy to make sure she chases them and that the rewards that way maybe become as valuable to the dog as the toy?
Did she try treats like a spray cheese type dispenser or filled kong with cheese, that she has to lick more?

My friend has found only cuttable treats so far. The treat must be a piece because of this: my friend uses a clicker and she cannot use a verbal phrase/marker. She needs to hold a clicker with one hand and a toy in another so that Lotta can't run away with it. She also needs to give the treat. It doesn't matter how it is given. That's why it would also be difficult to throw another toy. Besides, Lotta would start to play with it and would not drop it.

Don't move the toy, don't grab it, make it stop moving...?

Also has your friend tried to reward with ANOTHER toy isntead of food, if that is her highest motivation? Make up a hierachy of toys, for example my dog has even a hierachy of balls he likes, and I know it, so that I reward with different ones

Since she needs to use an actual clicker, how could she reward Lotta with another toy so that Lotta would not run away with it?

[FONT=&quot]So, my friend has a problem that Lotta gets too excited about toys. In another dog forum someone suggested that my friend would try no mugging exercises before attempting to teach drop it like in this video:[/FONT] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRT6r6d79OU So, that person suggested that she would do it with a toy instead of a treat. My friend wasn't sure if it works:

My friend suspects that if she would try what was suggested, her dog wouldn't take the toy anymore. Sometimes when my friend has tried to teach her dog to drop it, after few times her dog hasn't taken the toy back.

How is it teached in the way that her dog doesn't think she is not allowed to take the toy? Can someone answer to that question here? Can someone suggest something else too?

 

[romeosangiovese]

Based on what I've been reading, it sounds like your friend wants to train Lotta to grab a toy, then tug (as a reward when training other things in future), then letting go when told.

Since Lotta is so interested in the toy, why not say "Take It", present the toy to Lotta, tug around for a bit, say "Drop It" then wait. Don't tug, just hold the toy stiff but without moving it (the toy becomes "dead" in your hands), and wait for Lotta to find it boring. Then when Lotta does let go, click and say "Take It" and tug again (the tugging is the reward). Repeat a couple of times (think FAST FAST FAST repetitions, then at the last "Drop It", click when Lotta lets go and reward with a treat.

Don't worry about making Lotta calm. Surely the reason why your friend wants to ultimately use toys as a reward is exactly because she is excited about them! With enough repetitions Lotta will start to make the connection and will get what your friend is training (if she is consistent).

I wouldn't suggest training no mogging / leave it with the toy because the end behaviour that is rewarded is "don't touch it at all". It's a different behaviour from picking something up and letting go.

 

[Eleonora]

Since Lotta is so interested in the toy, why not say "Take It", present the toy to Lotta, tug around for a bit, say "Drop It" then wait. Don't tug, just hold the toy stiff but without moving it (the toy becomes "dead" in your hands), and wait for Lotta to find it boring. Then when Lotta does let go, click and say "Take It" and tug again (the tugging is the reward). Repeat a couple of times (think FAST FAST FAST repetitions, then at the last "Drop It", click when Lotta lets go and reward with a treat.

What should my friend do, when we have told that Lotta reacts differently to speak and a click.

Also my friend has read earlier that in clicker training the verbal cue is not used before the dog knows the behavior. She thinks that she cannot name the behavior immeadiately at the beginning, because when her dog does it at the beginning, it doesn't look similar as the end behavior. We created a thread where we can discuss about Lotta's training and behavior. You may want to check it out.

 

[romeosangiovese]

I think your friend needs to understand WHY they say you shouldn't use a verbal cue first - if you cannot make the behaviour for the cue happen, then yes, don't use it first (because as you say the end behaviour is different from what the dog might do). If you can (and in this case, taking and letting go of the toy is something your friend can easily get her dog to do), then it is fine to use the verbal cue (because you CAN get the end behaviour).

Not sure what you mean by reacting differently to speak and to a click, but a verbal cue and a click are two different things and serve two different purposes. A verbal cue tells the dog what it is you want her to do, a click marks the behaviour. A verbal cue is also not a reward/praise. Praise is yet another different thing with a different purpose. In your other thread, you mentioned that she cannot hear verbal praise. In my earlier post, I suggested tugging as the reward (not praise, although believe me, dogs hear it).

I would suggest that your friend not get too hung up on the principles of the clicker - it is merely a means to an end. Training is ANTECEDENT (verbal/physical cue) leading to BEHAVIOUR (the behaviour you want) followed by CONSEQUENCE (the reward). The clicker is just a bridge between BEHAVIOUR and CONSEQUENCE. If you remove the clicker bridge, dogs will still learn and can still be trained. Sometimes a clicker really helps to speed training up, sometimes it helps not to use it.

 

[Eleonora]

The previous message was also generally about Lotta's training. My friend was comparing a click to a verbal phrase - not to a cue.

Not sure what you mean by reacting differently to speak and to a click, but a verbal cue and a click are two different things....//.... In your other thread, you mentioned that she cannot hear verbal praise. In my earlier post, I suggested tugging as the reward (not praise, although believe me, dogs hear it).

Lotta only behaves generally like she wouldn't hear speach when she is concentrating on something else.

I think your friend needs to understand WHY they say you shouldn't use a verbal cue first - if you cannot make the behaviour for the cue happen, then yes, don't use it first (because as you say the end behaviour is different from what the dog might do). If you can (and in this case, taking and letting go of the toy is something your friend can easily get her dog to do), then it is fine to use the verbal cue (because you CAN get the end behaviour).

That may not work out with Lotta. This is not only about training sessions: when Lotta is playing with a toy, she is concentrating on it so much that she may not notice that one is saying something. In that case those cues are not going to mean anything to Lotta. If my friend cannot name the behaviors so early and she would do this:

Since Lotta is so interested in the toy, why not say "Take It", present the toy to Lotta, tug around for a bit, say "Drop It" then wait. Don't tug, just hold the toy stiff but without moving it (the toy becomes "dead" in your hands), and wait for Lotta to find it boring. Then when Lotta does let go, click and say "Take It" and tug again (the tugging is the reward). Repeat a couple of times (think FAST FAST FAST repetitions, then at the last "Drop It", click when Lotta lets go and reward with a treat.

Would my friend do it otherwise by the same way and would she click when Lotta does one of the behaviors and would she name the behaviors only when Lotta knows them? If someone could answer to the question, my friend could try it next.

 

[BarbV]

Leave it! was the easiest thing I ever taught my dogs. Its seemed to be instinctive for them. Usually it only required me to get them into a sit/stay. Then drop.

Interestly, the hardest thing I ever had with my Shelties was fetch and return. They would certainly fetch (herd), but bring back....forget it.

All to say that different breeds to certain things well. I'm not saying to give up on any training, but I think you need to understand the breed to get them to do behaviours that are not part of their makeup.

I hope you have patience then I!

 

[Eleonora]

This is what we asked and commented in the message we wrote Mar, 13. 2014 about what romeosangiovese suggested:

This is not only about training sessions: when Lotta is playing with a toy, she is concentrating on it so much that she may not notice that one is saying something. In that case those cues are not going to mean anything to Lotta. If my friend cannot name the behaviors so early and she would do this:

Would my friend do it otherwise by the same way and would she click when Lotta does one of the behaviors and would she name the behaviors only when Lotta knows them? If someone could answer to the question, my friend could try it next.

If someone could answer to those questions, my friend could try to teach those behaviors to Lotta.

 

[Calliesmom]

I suggest that you find a local trainer who can observe your issues and tailor a training program to the dog.

 

[melbell]

I suggest that you find a local trainer who can observe your issues and tailor a training program to the dog.

this. People gave you suggestions and you shut them down. Without physically seeing the dog, I honestly don't even know where to start.

 

[Eleonora]

I suggest that you find a local trainer who can observe your issues and tailor a training program to the dog.

My friend has taken Lotta to courses and she is going to take Lotta to them again as soon as she can. She would like to discuss about dog training in this forum until then.

We have only tried to discuss about suggestions. See more below*. So, you misunderstood things.

People gave you suggestions and you shut them down.
Without physically seeing the dog, I honestly don't even know where to start.

We have told how Lotta behaves:

Lotta gets too excited about toys,

I have told that my friend uses a clicker and thatwe created a thread where we can discuss about Lotta's training and behavior.

My friend has found few videos where the dog behaves by the same way as Lotta does. We have provided you with one in page 1. My friend has just found even better video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8rCI5YDCAE
We once tried to make a video by ourselves, but it didn't work out so well. My friend also doesn't want to put videos to youtube where anyone can see them.

*This is what we commented to the message(a suggestion?) about leaving treats:

My friend was told to teach leave it so that the reward is given by hand to the dog. It's different than the one the dog leaves. Besides, my friend is talking about how to teach her dog to take and drop toys.

My friend doesn't remember what else she thought about it than what we wrote then. When we later asked about something similar, she/he answered:

I wouldn't suggest training no mogging / leave it with the toy because the end behaviour that is rewarded is "don't touch it at all". It's a different behaviour from picking something up and letting go.

One suggestion was to throw another toy as a reward. We told that it may not work out.

This is the most recent suggestion:

Since Lotta is so interested in the toy, why not say "Take It", present the toy to Lotta, tug around for a bit, say "Drop It" then wait. Don't tug, just hold the toy stiff but without moving it (the toy becomes "dead" in your hands), and wait for Lotta to find it boring. Then when Lotta does let go, click and say "Take It" and tug again (the tugging is the reward). Repeat a couple of times (think FAST FAST FAST repetitions, then at the last "Drop It", click when Lotta lets go and reward with a treat.

This is what we asked about it:
"...If my friend cannot name the behaviors so early and she would do this:"
"Would my friend do it otherwise by the same way and would she click when Lotta does one of the behaviors and would she name the behaviors only when Lotta knows them?"
We did tell you that my friend could try that next, if someone could answer to the questions.

You can tell us if there is something that you don't understand or you want to know more about something.