Tell me about the sheltie's dark side

[MissyGallant]

Well, as you can tell, there aren't a lot of generalizations you can make. I do agree with one thing- you won't pee alone. Ever. BUT- That is because they want to see you. I have five and they do not need to be on my lap. They just want to see me. And I guess I need to be supervised in the bathroom. Mine are not lap dogs, but they do enjoy being petted.

Yes, they are herders. They are smart and can think for themselves. They need to work. If you like dog sports, then they will most likely excel. If you don't like to interact with a dog, this is not the breed for you. They need a job. If you don't give them one (ie- lets play Frisbee or catch or agility) they will give themselves one- and you might not like what they choose.

My first dog was alone in an apartment while I worked and according to my neighbors, would only bark within a half hour of when I came home. The ones vary in the levels of barking. Two bark to tell me everything. Two bark for a reason.

Please remember, that you are asking for the dark side of the only breed I want, so this is not easy for me. They aren't for everyone. They are very smart, and I think some people have a hard time with that. Most important thing about a sheltie is that it needs a JOB. And it needs LOVE. If it doesn't get both, it is an unhappy dog that will make everyone else unhappy.

 

[Laddie's Mom]

Well, as you can tell, there aren't a lot of generalizations you can make. I do agree with one thing- you won't pee alone. Ever. BUT- That is because they want to see you. I have five and they do not need to be on my lap. They just want to see me. And I guess I need to be supervised in the bathroom. Mine are not lap dogs, but they do enjoy being petted.

Yes, they are herders. They are smart and can think for themselves. They need to work. If you like dog sports, then they will most likely excel. If you don't like to interact with a dog, this is not the breed for you. They need a job. If you don't give them one (ie- lets play Frisbee or catch or agility) they will give themselves one- and you might not like what they choose.

My first dog was alone in an apartment while I worked and according to my neighbors, would only bark within a half hour of when I came home. The ones vary in the levels of barking. Two bark to tell me everything. Two bark for a reason.

Please remember, that you are asking for the dark side of the only breed I want, so this is not easy for me. They aren't for everyone. They are very smart, and I think some people have a hard time with that. Most important thing about a sheltie is that it needs a JOB. And it needs LOVE. If it doesn't get both, it is an unhappy dog that will make everyone else unhappy.

I will say that my Laddie does like to bark, but it is like a "poof", I don't know it will progress or not, our poor kitty gets his face barked in a lot.

As to finding things to do, oh yes, and I did not realize that, I thought that was only Border Collies. They are very inventive too.

I actually love a clingy dog, but I guess that is not really a way for them to be, I love the attention, I admit. He does follow us around and does love the bathroom.

I love my dog and Shelites in general, so writing the "bad" is hard. But, no dog is perfect.

 

[Lunatic59]

But, no dog is perfect.

Speak for yourself.

My Winston was perfect.

 

[Laddie's Mom]

Speak for yourself.

My Winston was perfect.

LOL, yep, I guess there are exceptions to all rules.

 

[Justicemom]

Busyness & sensitivity:
I'm into dog sports. If given an appropriate amount of mental and physical stimulation daily, how active are shelties in the house? Are they constantly looking for something to do, or do they tune into the activity level of the house and calm down if the environment is calm?
I've heard that some shelties get upset or riled up at things as simple as phones ringing -- So if the sheltie is from a responsible breeder that has exposed their puppies to many different noises and events, will they still typically act very sensitive around sudden household noises?

I have 5 shelties 4 which live with me and 1 who is with his co owner(who has 6). I show my dogs in agility and obedience and conformation. I train my dogs or do something with them everyday. When we are training, they are active ,engaged, responsive and ready to go. All of them can wait their turn in a calm manner. No barking, no spinning, no whining(except Diva who gets mad if I work any other dog), no reactivity. When I am at home and not doing anything with them they chill and usually sleep. However, they are always watching for clues I may do something with them ie I touch the Chuck It and they are in full action mode.

My shelties are not reactive to normal sights and sounds. Vacuums, thunderstorms, fireworks don't get a reaction at all. Usually I am more on edge by storms then they are. I play noise tapes from the time they come home, they go to shows and training class and see and hear everything so they learn to care less. Now unusual things, you bet they react, loudly but they are not the type to bark at leaves falling from the trees or rolling across the yard or a car going by. I had 2 noise sensitive dogs(a lab and a JRT mix) before I got shelties so early exposure and desensitization is very high priority to me in my training. You need to get a sheltie form stable parents and good lines. No not all pups from big well known breeders(performance and show) fall in the category I am afraid. Anxiety is rampant in this breed and it leads to all the behaviors people fault shelties for(reactivity, hyperactivity, nonsense barking, oversensitivity etc) Do you research, met the parents, ask about how the puppies are socialized and be prepared to walk away if you don't like what you see.

Now Justice does bark at the phone only because he is old enough to know the wall phone and he used to alert me. When I got a cell phone, he used to bark and run and get it(self taught to retrieve it) They also do bark at the door bell(I can visitors who ring it once in a blue moon) and Ember has this weird obsession with the washer spinning so they aren't perfect.

Neediness:
How owner dependent are shelties compared to other breeds? I was previously considering a papillon or Chinese crested, but I found out both breeds are notorious "bathroom attendants", if you know what I mean. I work from home so I can easily keep a dog company, but I cannot have nor want one climbing all over me or in my face while I'm working. Coming around for pets sometimes is good, extreme clingy velcro dog behavior I'm trying to avoid.

Mine are watchful and always know exactly where I am. Yes they do follow me to the bathroom. But clingy as in all over you for constant attention they are not. I actually do not like Goldens at all because they are too needy. I do admit the dogs I tend to chose for myself are very focused and responsive to people but are not in my face or submissive. I like the outgoing confident responsive pup, I broke that rule with Ember and we didn't gel for a long time.

Barking:
I've been reading posts on this forum about shelties barking and I can't find a consensus on how futile it is to try and stop them from barking inappropriately.
Three popular opinions seem to be:
-Stopping a sheltie from barking is like stopping them from breathing, and might even be ethically wrong.
-It entirely depends on the individual dog, training done, and environment they live in. Some shelties come into the world the same way they leave; barking. A minority are quieter.
-A reasonably quiet sheltie is possible if you train them in a consistent manner from an early age and give them adequate exercise.

I think I have the most concern over this trait because shelties are so renowned for their bark. I've seen enough of shelties barking in real life to know that this is not to be taken lightly. It's their thing. I would never expect that a sheltie (or any dog) be completely silent, and I don't mind alarm barking as long as they can be trained to stop on command.

.My point is, I've been there once already and I want to get off on the right paw with my next dog and keep barking at a reasonable level.

Yes shelties bark. I think they talk. Mine have different barks for different things. Usually one or 2 at a time, a grumble, a grunt or happy growl under their breath. It is cute and I don't mind.

It is easiest to train them not to "alarm" bark if they are an only sheltie or only dog. My boy Justice was super quite and almost never barked. I got Ember who likes to hear herself some days and he started barking more. with 4 if 1 barks they all do and that can get loud. When they are playing some bark some don't. None of my dogs bark just to bark though. They all do know the command quiet and it is effective. I am also do not responsive from day 1 to attention seeking barking so none of my dogs do it.

It does vary by dog. I can usually tell who is going to be more vocal right from the start. Justice was a quiet puppy and a quiet dog. Ember middle of the road puppy, she barks mostly in the morning to help me get going to let her out and she barks when I come home, she never barks in public(she puts on her halo). Diva is a bossy little thing. She has this demanding bark during agility when she thinks I am wrong, when she is playing and goes into controlling mode(she had a big mouth from day 1) Birch was a vocal puppy but he only barks to be let out of his kennel when I get home. None of my dogs except Diva bark when working. Even Diva will run silent if I do my job.

The other traits that some people might consider negative like coat care, and herding behaviors, are not bothersome at all for me.
If there are other negative sheltie traits that you think I should know about, fire away. I want to know why I might not want to live with one.

Thanks for any help!
~Foxy

As others have said one of the great things about shelties, is one of the worse. They are very smart and learn very quickly what gets them what they want. If you do not like a behavior do not let them do it and do not respond to it. If you do not like barking do not response when they bring you a toy and demand you throw it with a bark. Do not let them dictate your schedule(I don't have one so my dogs go with the flow and don't get demanding for meals etc) I think they are the master manipulators and will rule if you let them. Fair, consistent structured expectations of what you want should be the rule. Not that my dogs are little robots but the things that are important to me I don't say to myself just this one time(because it will happen again if the dogs enjoyed it)

Also Shelties do not tolerate heavy hands in training and they do not suffer fools. If you are use to training old school or working with tough physical dogs and that is your style you will need to change your ways or this is not the breed for you. Not that shelties with proper temperament will not crumble with a verbal or physical correction, they won't or shouldn't. But it is rarely needed and they will lose their joy in working for you. Trust is slowly gained and easily loss unless there is a lot in the bank.

 

[Chris]

Speak for yourself.

My Winston was perfect.

Ain't it the truth!

 

[Foxy]

Thank you all very much! I didn't think I would get so many detailed responses. I read every single reply and you've given me a lot to think about. I appreciate your honesty. :sadsmile:

Some of your stories had me laughing (especially how many of you mentioned never peeing alone again ), and honestly shelties don't sound bad at all. From what I'm understanding, where you get your sheltie and how you train them early on is probably the most important for getting a well behaved, easy to live with dog - but the same could be true for any breed so I don't feel intimidated by what I could be in for anymore.

I think there was a question in there somewhere as to what training methods I use; I clicker train exclusively. I find it rewarding to sit down (or run around) with an intelligent dog and seeing the light bulbs go off in their head as they try to figure things out.

I'm going to specifically quote Dr. Shelli's post because she basically described exactly what I'm looking for in better words. (It's also the post I just read so I remember it in detail better, lol!)

When we are training, they are active ,engaged, responsive and ready to go. All of them can wait their turn in a calm manner.(...) When I am at home and not doing anything with them they chill and usually sleep.

This to me is ideal. I would love a dog that is ready to go (like a furry rocket) when I am, but also has an off switch when I have to work on other things. I like to do something and train every day with my dog and if they aren't enthusiastic too, I don't have as much fun.

The off switch concept: I don't know if that's something only some dogs are born with or if it's trained, or both? I haven't raised enough dogs to know. I know there are ways to "capture" calmness, and/or teach them to lie on a mat or special spot when you need a little space. My last dog was automatically relaxed in the house and chose his own special spot in front of the door (like I mentioned he was a watch dog who barked at leaves) when I couldn't pay attention to him, so I never had to consciously use any of those methods. I'm guessing with some shelties you have to?

You need to get a sheltie form stable parents and good lines. No not all pups from big well known breeders(performance and show) fall in the category I am afraid. Anxiety is rampant in this breed and it leads to all the behaviors people fault shelties for(reactivity, hyperactivity, nonsense barking, oversensitivity etc) Do you research, met the parents, ask about how the puppies are socialized and be prepared to walk away if you don't like what you see.

Ok, this explains it really well. A few of you mentioned this and I expected that it had something to do with various lines and early training but I needed to hear it.

So my understanding of this (or misunderstanding!):
Shelties should be alert like a typical watch dog, and will bark at things they think are out of order. That's what they were bred for. But they shouldn't be overly sensitive; Anxious behavior like spinning, reactivity to normal household noise might have to do with their genetics and/or how the shelite was raised.
Since I have an untrained eye for shelties, if I were to visit a breeder what should I look for to avoid lines with nervous issues like that? Besides avoiding spinning dogs. I'm not sure where to start with this.

I actually do not like Goldens at all because they are too needy. I do admit the dogs I tend to chose for myself are very focused and responsive to people but are not in my face or submissive. I like the outgoing confident responsive pup, I broke that rule with Ember and we didn't gel for a long time.

Yes! Ok, this is basically how I feel. I have met shelties that were the "strong silent type" (as one of you called it) and I think that describes what I like pretty well.

So if I understand correctly, shelties like to follow you around and be in the same area as you, but generally give you a bit of space, especially if you don't let them manipulate you into giving them attention when they demand it? If so that sounds fine.

Forgive me as I'm having a hard time describing this "neediness" quality that I don't like. And I think some people were asking for clarification on this.

I do want a dog that likes to interact with me, but isn't insecure or doting and needing to be picked up, touched, or cuddled all the time. I do like to cuddle with my dog sometimes, but when in the house I prefer if they are just "around" doing dog things most of the time. If they want to watch me doing stuff that's totally fine.

I don't mind a dog following me around or coming up to me while I'm working. I think it's when they don't seem to have a mind of their own? When they can't lie down without being right there, touching your leg (sometimes is fine), or can't sometimes play with their toys without you? Does this make sense at all? It's not the loyalty, it's the "I can't do absolutely anything without you" attitude that it seems a lot of toy dogs have bred into them (correct me if I'm wrong).

[Barking] It does vary by dog. I can usually tell who is going to be more vocal right from the start.

Is it something that's obvious? I've read here that some shelties can be quiet when they are puppies and then "find their voice" on maturity. Nature vs. nurture?

If I had a sheltie that barked at dog sports I wouldn't care. Especially if I did flyball again because all the dogs bark anyway! It's the anxious reactivity and separation anxiety that I'm worried about. From what I can gather from all your information, HOW reactive a sheltie is to noise can depend on the lines they are from? If that's so, where do I begin with researching that?

Do not let them dictate your schedule(I don't have one so my dogs go with the flow and don't get demanding for meals etc) I think they are the master manipulators and will rule if you let them. Fair, consistent structured expectations of what you want should be the rule. Not that my dogs are little robots but the things that are important to me I don't say to myself just this one time(because it will happen again if the dogs enjoyed it)

I completely agree with this philosophy and have found it to be true of other breeds too, if not all dogs... that "just this once" is a trap! It's so much harder to undo things once they learn it works (even if 0.1% of the time!). I made mistakes like that with my first dog and am more aware of it now.


This is getting really long and I may have asked the same question twice. If anyone has any thoughts that would be great. Thanks again for your help!

 

[dblock]

But, no dog is perfect.

Beau here, My mamma says since she's not perfect, she can't expect me to be perfect and she loves me even more because of my imperfections. My mamma says she only wants me to try to be my best and as long as I try and she sees that I'm happy, that's enough. That's mamma love. Knowing that we can be not only likable, but completely and wholly lovable even with ALL our flaws both human and canine.

 

[Internette]

My dog doesnt go into the bathroom with me but my cats do and he has learned to block the door because they are afraid to jump over him, so he lies down in front of the doorway and they wont cross it. He looks at them, looks at me and so on, he thinks he is clever and no one knows what he is trying to do, lol.

The time dictating I think I may be in trouble on some form of dictation. He was waking me every morning at 7 am with a bark so now I ignore him and when he is quiet and I get up he gets attention, he no longer gets breakfast asap then, since I usually am cooking him something. I dont want to be told when to get it, or the whole house ends up too early and grumpy. He can free eat his dry food anytime (he hates every dry I have tried so far) It is working well, he is patient and waits for me to tell him it is breakfast and potty time. I was guilty of oh this one time and I mean to tell you he wouldn't listen if I gave in. I allowed him on the loveseat with me then he stole the loveseat, he is back to not on the furniture because he wasn't friendly when I wanted him off, so were back to I am the Mommy and the boss again. I gave treats with out sit and other commands and just gave them out of being good and then I had to go back and work on the commands again and he didnt want to do them. All my fault, but I really didnt know if you give in that one time , you end up creating a furry beast in charge.

 

[HopeShelties]

Busyness & sensitivity:
Most shelties are typically fairly easy to live with. You'll want to ask lots of questions and observe the parents. There are definitely a fair number of reactive shelties out there, but I've been fortunate not to have one yet.

Neediness:
There is no guarantee, as each dog is an individual, but I find boys tend to be clingier than girls. My girls can all sit in the same room with me and be content. Boys on the other hand seem to want to be on top of me and be mommied to death. Can't stand that So I stick with my girls mostly.

Barking:
You are unlikely to stop a breed that is known to bark from barking completely. That said, mine are good in the house. Unless someone is at the door, or they are playing, they aren't barking.