Thanksgiving puppy vaccination reaction...

[granite]

I would think this would be the scariest situation...taking your pup in for vaccinations that are to protect her and having the reaction...and then you think, well...now what do we do next time?

Hopefully your vet will research the vaccination lot to see if there is any problem with it; and look at alternative methods of protecting your dog (different formulation of the shot, separation of doses, etc).

Wishing everyone's pup good health!

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

I have done a lot of research on vaccines and immunity, which is how I formulated my personal protocol. I can honestly say that if I had a dog that had to be pre-drugged and/or monitored, that dog wouldn't get the vaccine.

There are two ways of thinking about the issue. The first is risk-based. You take a good look at the actual risks involved. With a dog that has had a severe reaction, the risk of another reaction and the risk of life-long consequences to the immune system are probably greater than the risk of them actually contracting the disease, especially if they have already had one or two shots.

This is where titers can be handy. If the dog has a scary reaction, bring them back to the vet 2-3 weeks later and have a titer pulled. A positive titer probably means the vaccine worked, then it won't have to be repeated.

The second way of thinking about vaccines is the "if my dog/child doesn't have every vaccine recommended every year, they will die a horrible death from a preventable disease." This way of thinking completely rules out any risk-based assessment in favor of fear. No rationality, just fear.

I choose to go with the risk-based model, so my dogs get much fewer vaccines than most. I am a firm believer in immunity through exposure. With the amount of places my dogs go, they have plenty of opportunity to sniff poop and get small doses of virus to fight off.

I also donate money to the Rabies Challenge Study, which is trying to show that the Rabies vaccine is sufficient for longer than it is currently licensed for. Right now they are allowing 3 years between shots, but if they can show a 5 or 7 year immunity, that decreases the number of Rabies shots in a lifetime. It is completely self funded (because what vaccine maker is going to fund a study that shows we need fewer vaccines?)

http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

 

[Justicemom]

I have done a lot of research on vaccines and immunity, which is how I formulated my personal protocol. I can honestly say that if I had a dog that had to be pre-drugged and/or monitored, that dog wouldn't get the vaccine.

There are two ways of thinking about the issue. The first is risk-based. You take a good look at the actual risks involved. With a dog that has had a severe reaction, the risk of another reaction and the risk of life-long consequences to the immune system are probably greater than the risk of them actually contracting the disease, especially if they have already had one or two shots.

This is where titers can be handy. If the dog has a scary reaction, bring them back to the vet 2-3 weeks later and have a titer pulled. A positive titer probably means the vaccine worked, then it won't have to be repeated.

The second way of thinking about vaccines is the "if my dog/child doesn't have every vaccine recommended every year, they will die a horrible death from a preventable disease." This way of thinking completely rules out any risk-based assessment in favor of fear. No rationality, just fear.

I choose to go with the risk-based model, so my dogs get much fewer vaccines than most. I am a firm believer in immunity through exposure. With the amount of places my dogs go, they have plenty of opportunity to sniff poop and get small doses of virus to fight off.

I also donate money to the Rabies Challenge Study, which is trying to show that the Rabies vaccine is sufficient for longer than it is currently licensed for. Right now they are allowing 3 years between shots, but if they can show a 5 or 7 year immunity, that decreases the number of Rabies shots in a lifetime. It is completely self funded (because what vaccine maker is going to fund a study that shows we need fewer vaccines?)

http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

I completely agree with you. I choose the risk based model too. In fact, I left my last practice over such an issue. They wanted my to vaccinate everything with everything, if they had a reaction just premed them if they had another just premed them with more. I said no, I will make the descision on a case by case basis with discussion with the owners. Oh well.

The problem with rabies vaccines is getting the laws changed. They are many states and cities then have the 3 yr info and still won't change it. They are afraid of rabies increasing in the area and nothing you can say will change it. I was part of trying to increase the time between rabies vaccines in S.Dak. in the late 90's. They had a 1 yr rabies for cats. Best we could do was get it change to 2 yrs. It was something but not enough. They had a 2 yr for dogs too. Didn't care if you gave a 3yr vaccine or not. I left the state shortly there after.

 

[Ann]

I'm curious, Dr. Shelli and Clantyre...is there a titer that can be done for rabies and if there is, would you recommend doing that before the automatic three-year vaccination? I titer all my dogs before vaccinating at age 7 (and my vet is a very conservative vaccinator anyway) but have never heard of it for Rabies, although I'd be interested in knowing if that's a viable option.

 

[danisgoat]

I'm curious, Dr. Shelli and Clantyre...is there a titer that can be done for rabies and if there is, would you recommend doing that before the automatic three-year vaccination? I titer all my dogs before vaccinating at age 7 (and my vet is a very conservative vaccinator anyway) but have never heard of it for Rabies, although I'd be interested in knowing if that's a viable option.

I hope you don't mind me stepping in here, Ann.

I can answer to the part that "yes" there is a titer that can be run for rabies. I volunteered for many years at a Wildlife Rehab Center, so I need to be vaccinated for rabies. Instead of getting my annual booster shot, , I had my titers checked to see if I still had the antibodies.

I think the problem with rabies, remains in the legislation. Local governments are afraid of a rabies epidemic, and they feel that if they start accepting titers, it becomes more work for them to keep track of dogs that are actually protected against rabies. In addition, I think there can be a chance that between blood tests....the antibodies can decrease therefore allowing the dog to be susceptible for rabies. But with these statements, I am reaching, and not positive if this is true.

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

I think the problem with rabies, remains in the legislation. Local governments are afraid of a rabies epidemic, and they feel that if they start accepting titers, it becomes more work for them to keep track of dogs that are actually protected against rabies. In addition, I think there can be a chance that between blood tests....the antibodies can decrease therefore allowing the dog to be susceptible for rabies. But with these statements, I am reaching, and not positive if this is true.

You are absolutely right, Rabies laws are based on fear, not science or reason. Vaccines are "licensed" for as long as they are studied. So to push them out on the market faster, they do challenge testing after a year, call that "good enough" and then claim the vaccine has to be given yearly. It is too costly and too slow for them to test the vaccines over three, five, or ten years before they market them. We have gotten most vaccines to three years, but many think the MLV last a lifetime. We assume it does in people. Example: who has had a MMR vaccine recently? anyone?

My understanding of how the immune system works (Dr. Shelli please correct if I get this wrong, or if I oversimplify) is that when challenged, the immune system creates antibodies and memory cells. The challenge can be in the form of a vaccine or through natural exposure. The antibodies only live so long, but the memory cells stay forever. So when challenged again, the body remembers what it needs to do and does it. I have heard it compared to fire trucks, just because you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't in the fire house waiting.

So titers measure antibodies, they can't measure memory cells. If a dog has not been challenged recently, they will not titer very high. This does not mean they are not protected. So titers that are run close to the time of challenge (or vaccine) will tell you if the dog created antibodies, and will give you a good measure of what the response to the vaccine was. I posture that an unvaccinated dog who goes to a dog park and sniffs the poop of recently vaccinated dogs might also titer adequately.

Rabies is a little different, because it is a killed vaccine, and this is where I bow out. Killed vaccines work in basically the same way, but I think the body doesn't respond to them as well, which is why they are full of stimulating chemicals.

I have had a dog titered for Rabies as shipping requirements to Hawaii (currently Rabies-free). We pulled the titer three weeks after his first shot, and it was adequate for shipping. Now, Hawaii requires TWO Rabies shots, regardless of the titer. So he had to have another one 90+ days later. I felt horrible about it, but I know he will never have to have another one, since local dogs don't have to have them.

 

[Ann]

Thanks for that information, Danielle and Clantyre...makes sense. Of course the other problem is that even if a titer determines that your dog doesn't need a rabies vaccine, you can't take it anywhere or get a license without a current rabies certificate. So it's a real catch 22 without, as you said, changing the legislative requirements.