Trainers that use shock collars exist??

That being said, my sister has a GSD and I couldn't see her using a regular collar and leash and actually being able to control her crazy dog. Every situation is different.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree. If you have a "crazy" dog you have to use a collar that will control situations you might find yourself in. I don't personally use these types of collar but, if I absolutely had to I would.
 
Oh there's definitely some opinions flying around here about people's personal preference, like using a choke lead. What was originally about shock collars has now extended to any kind of leash that could possibly tighten around the neck or head.

That being said, my sister has a GSD and I couldn't see her using a regular collar and leash and actually being able to control her crazy dog. Every situation is different.

Wow, that's just it, isn't it?
the question was do trainers who use shock collars still exist? And Jess mentioned how surprised she was as she thought it was all positive enforcement training now, which is what she subscribes to. :yes:

I apologize I certainly never once meant to make anybody feel defensive or that I was implying they torture their dogs, because I respect all posters from the many, many posts that we do heartily agree on!

But again what I AM commenting on is that any of these types of collars are NOT positive training which is what the original poster commented and asked about.. Chokers and prongs are not the lesser evil to use than a shock collar, because they ARE based on the same punitive physical aversion theories! It is not positive, it is not operant conditioning and it is not based on new science of dog behaviour and training. This is going to the heart of the matters from the question asked of why these devices like shock collars and trainers who train with those even still exist: Cuz they work, people have used them for years, people feel they may not want to change their ways of training, they feel they can control their dog etc. and there are as always anecdotal references.
 
I totally agree. If you have a "crazy" dog you have to use a collar that will control situations you might find yourself in. I don't personally use these types of collar but, if I absolutely had to I would.

You don't have to, if you want to train positively you can still be in charge of 'crazy dogs' or often they wouldn't become so crazy to begin with
 
Chokers and prongs are not the lesser evil to use than a shock collar, because they ARE based on the same punitive physical aversion theories!

And my point is that to put a choke collar in the same category as a shock collar makes the shock collar not so bad.

You also make the assumption that chokes are only used to string dogs up, or correct them, when that is not the case. Using chokes in non-training situations is not a bad thing.

Especially in our breed, where heads should be lean, and neck hair should be plenty, a collar that has the potential to slide over that head and hair *drastically* increases the odds of a dog pulling out and getting loose. I saw it all the time when we did rescue. How many dogs pulled out of their collar and were gone? Our rescue used nylon chokes for YEARS, for just this reason. Those dogs didn't know us, and some were petrified. We couldn't take the risk of losing them.

We found a much cooler choke/martingale combo collar that she uses now, but yes, it will tighten right down like a choke when pulled. It has nothing to do with training, but safety. And no, we don't use harnesses, because we see dogs get out of those as well.
 
And my point is that to put a choke collar in the same category as a shock collar makes the shock collar not so bad.

You also make the assumption that chokes are only used to string dogs up, or correct them, when that is not the case. Using chokes in non-training situations is not a bad thing.

Especially in our breed, where heads should be lean, and neck hair should be plenty, a collar that has the potential to slide over that head and hair *drastically* increases the odds of a dog pulling out and getting loose. I saw it all the time when we did rescue. How many dogs pulled out of their collar and were gone? Our rescue used nylon chokes for YEARS, for just this reason. Those dogs didn't know us, and some were petrified. We couldn't take the risk of losing them.

We found a much cooler choke/martingale combo collar that she uses now, but yes, it will tighten right down like a choke when pulled. It has nothing to do with training, but safety. And no, we don't use harnesses, because we see dogs get out of those as well.

I did indeed misunderstand your original point, and now it makes sense to me why it was even brought up to begin with. I agree with you on that front. It was not my intent to villefiy people who use these types of collars in the way you describe. The martingale is a good option and I still stand by the possible use of a proper, easy-walk harness as a BIG viable option to work with a pulling and leash reactive dog! But those are just personal preferences.

The intent of the original post, however was about training and training with a choke or the type of punitive methods using aversive techniques aren't positive at all.
 
That being said, my sister has a GSD and I couldn't see her using a regular collar and leash and actually being able to control her crazy dog. Every situation is different.

I totally agree. If you have a "crazy" dog you have to use a collar that will control situations you might find yourself in. I don't personally use these types of collar but, if I absolutely had to I would.

I can honestly say, in my sister's case, I wouldn't have even kept this dog. He is without a doubt an incredibly hard dog to work with. I know I'm intimidated by him bigtime. He is 80 lbs of craziness and without a choke collar he would(and has) hurt people. Is he depressed or subdued when he wears it? Absolutely not. It just barely curbs his attitude.
 
I can honestly say, in my sister's case, I wouldn't have even kept this dog. He is without a doubt an incredibly hard dog to work with. I know I'm intimidated by him bigtime. He is 80 lbs of craziness and without a choke collar he would(and has) hurt people. Is he depressed or subdued when he wears it? Absolutely not. It just barely curbs his attitude.

Oh no, sounds like a big handful of crazy :no:
By your description the dog sounds like training with a choke collar didn't work out so well... and it has now become a management tool.
I don't blame you being afraid of that dog, it's awful if they already hurt a person!
 
Oh no, sounds like a big handful of crazy :no:
By your description the dog sounds like training with a choke collar didn't work out so well... and it has now become a management tool.
I don't blame you being afraid of that dog, it's awful if they already hurt a person!

Oh he is crazy sometimes. Then other times he's super sweet. When he was younger he had turned on my mother in law and my sister in law a few times and bit them. She's done extensive obedience training with him and he's very well trained, but he still is just over a year old and is very immature. He doesn't know his own strength and we're all 5 foot nothing and so it's not so easy to control him sometimes. The choke is the only thing that gets his attention. She doesn't keep it on all the time, but if she has to let him out and there's people around, or she has to get him past her cats(because he wants to play with them and the cats actually attack him! lol) she does put it on to help control him. He's very strong and I can guarantee you it's never broken his spirit :winkgrin:
 
I have and use a 'shock' collar, or e-collar with my dog.
And, I recommended it to a lady I met in my clicker training class for her dog. She was totally against it in principle, however after 4-5 months of seeing us almost daily at the dog park, and seeing how happily responsive my dog was, she decided to bite the bullet and try one for her somewhat willful Lab/Greyhound mix.
Still took her a couple of months to actually use it though.
Once she did, and after she'd read how to properly use it as I'd told her from a professional trainers site loucastle.com
she was totally floored.

I believe she has only used it twice, and he actually recalls at her command, and he doesn't look tortured or fearful in the least.


THE problem with shock collars, and most of the people who are against them are based upon plain ignorance.
Without knowing anything more than the average dog owner, I also though they were simply used as immediate correction devices, dog does something you don't want, shock.
Unfortunately, thats the opposite of Training.
And obviously, how is the dog really going to know what you want, etc.

Training with a shock/e-collar is effective, is humane, and it does open up a whole different realm of interaction with your dog than solely positive reinforcement. And does not have to involve pain.

The key is, when you are doing it properly, you are not zapping your dog. You have a decent brand collar, with multiple levels of power, and you are working at the lowest level the dog can feel. Basically you are able to send a signal to the dog, and he feels nothing more than tingling sensation.
You are working on a feedback system that is not based upon pain.

The first and most important thing and reason I got the collar was for recall. After a couple of months of clicker training, with a respected teacher at that, I was still getting half-hearted compliance, and that wasn't acceptable.
Within 20 minutes of getting the collar on my dog, I had 95%+ compliance. And that was just one simple, pain-free session.
Took him to the dog park the next day, and no matter where he was in the park, even if a couple of dogs were scrapping and he wanted to watch, I could get him to come back to me with one call, verbal, no 'zap'.

And its been that way ever since, and frankly I kind of love to show that off. He's so good now that anytime a couple of dogs start to go at it, while he wants to join in the onlookers and watch, he will most often look at me for a jerk of the heard to come to me instead. He's learned pretty much to not get involved in the pile-on that occurs once a scrap starts with multiple dogs around.

Thats with the collar on, and off.
And that has helped immensely in all areas of obedience.

And for the record, most collars come with a pager button, which either makes the collar beep or vibrate, which is all I ever really use now, on the rare occasion I even need to use it.

The sad thing is that they make the cheap collars with only a couple of settings, and most of them are too high to start with for most dogs, and even if they don't cause real pain are startling enough to cause a yelp, and they don't really do much to educate the user on how to properly use them.
 
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