danisgoat
Moderator
I agree....no prong collar for a Sheltie.
Training for a 10 month old problem barker
- Thread starter saraja87
- Start date
I'm somewhat surprised by all the no-prong collar replies. While we thought they looked scary at first and this is our first time using one for any dog, both seem to respond really positively to it. My GSD Milou is a long coated GSD and also has a long neck ruff but the prongs haven't gotten caught in either dog's fur yet. I should also add that Tintin is an oversized sheltie and was 35.5 pounds at his last weigh in. He has a good roll of fat around his ribs so he should probably only be 28-30lbs at his ideal weight but he's very tall for a sheltie. Milou is also still a baby at only 33 pounds.
When we adopted Tintin, his foster parents gave us a choke chain for him which we've read can do a great deal of damage to their trachea so we put it away. We first tried a regular nylon collar with a clicker and cookies and a gentle leader. Our other possible option is a martingale.
Interestingly, both Milou and Tintin HATE their gentle leaders and will try to eat them and scratch them off their noses like it's killing them. Walking them with it on seems to produce a major negative association and they don't enjoy their walks. On the other hand, both will stand calmly but excitedly with tails wagging and their heads tilted up for us to put the prong collar on and will wag their tails/sniff happily on walks. Tintin especially doesn't seem to notice the prongs much through his fur (I'm not sure if they reach through) but regulates himself almost perfectly to pressure when he pulls.
Since this is really our first time using it I'd love to hear more about why you might recommend/not recommend any type of collar since this is the only thing that has worked for us thus far.
For barking, he seems to bark exclusively in his crate aside from normal play barking. After his potty/walk/play time this morning, he barked for a solid hour from 7:30-8:30am, almost like major separation anxiety. As long as he could hear us in the house, he would NOT stop. Yesterday we had him tethered next to us and he did really well with a kong filled with frozen peanut butter/cookies but everything goes out the window when he's barking in the crate. It really throws us off because he'll go in willingly, tail wagging and is happy and quiet as long as you're in there with him but the second you leave the room he barks like he's being tortured.
When we adopted Tintin, his foster parents gave us a choke chain for him which we've read can do a great deal of damage to their trachea so we put it away. We first tried a regular nylon collar with a clicker and cookies and a gentle leader. Our other possible option is a martingale.
Interestingly, both Milou and Tintin HATE their gentle leaders and will try to eat them and scratch them off their noses like it's killing them. Walking them with it on seems to produce a major negative association and they don't enjoy their walks. On the other hand, both will stand calmly but excitedly with tails wagging and their heads tilted up for us to put the prong collar on and will wag their tails/sniff happily on walks. Tintin especially doesn't seem to notice the prongs much through his fur (I'm not sure if they reach through) but regulates himself almost perfectly to pressure when he pulls.
Since this is really our first time using it I'd love to hear more about why you might recommend/not recommend any type of collar since this is the only thing that has worked for us thus far.
For barking, he seems to bark exclusively in his crate aside from normal play barking. After his potty/walk/play time this morning, he barked for a solid hour from 7:30-8:30am, almost like major separation anxiety. As long as he could hear us in the house, he would NOT stop. Yesterday we had him tethered next to us and he did really well with a kong filled with frozen peanut butter/cookies but everything goes out the window when he's barking in the crate. It really throws us off because he'll go in willingly, tail wagging and is happy and quiet as long as you're in there with him but the second you leave the room he barks like he's being tortured.
I agree that prong collars are not for the long-haired or sensitive personality. For the prong collar to work correctly, you would probably have to shave his mane off. I don't believe in prong collars for any dog, really. And this is no offense to you, but I believe it's used way too often by dog owners that are "lazy" don't want to take the time to correct the problem by using positive reinforcement. A smart dog like a sheltie will quickly realize they only have to listen when the collar is on. I compare these collars to shock collars for barking...they sometimes overcorrect, and they are just a "quick fix" that don't get to the root of the problem. Not to mention that once you correct your sheltie with the prong collar, it will not fully release with all that fur (even more so when you have a 2.5-3 year old with the full adult coat) so your dog will be having his fur pulled out constantly. (Compare it to having a piece of tape stuck in your own hair and then someone trying to pull it out very slowly...ouch).
Nylon collars will often cause breakage and matting in the fur, so that's another no-no for shelties and other longhaired breeds. I just groomed my friend's Pomeranian and had to cut a good deal of mats from around his neck due to the nylon collar she uses on him causing thick uncomfortable mats.
Martingales are not generally used for training purposes. They were developed originally for dogs such as the greyhound, whose necks are bigger than their heads and can easily slip out of their collars. They have become popular for shelties because some shelites have a reputation for slipping their collars when they startle during a walk. They are designed to tighten only to the point of being snug around the neck. It should be impossible to "choke" with a martingale.
Chain slip collars (as I tried using once) can pinch the skin/fur-as I found out from my dog when I tried correcting him with it-it pinched his fur when I pulled the chain and he gave me a quick "yip", I could tell it pinched his skin/fur. However, they should never cause trachea damage if you are using them properly. The only time a choke chain would cause trachea damage is if you tie your dog out with it and is left to lunge at whatever, or if your dog gets a running start and is stopped abruptly by the chain.
When you say that your sheltie seemed "relieved" with the prong collar, you also state he wanted to be pet, and be given attention. I'm wondering if this reaction was because he was maybe a bit nervous with it on, feeling "teeth" around his neck.
I myself have 2 puppies. 30 weeks old , and 20 weeks. Both shelties. My 20 week old I brought home at 8 weeks. He has the most PIERCING bark I have ever heard. He barked and barked and barked in his crate. He could bark all day and night-he doesn't care. I think he enjoys hearing himself bark. Now, due to my training, he barks in his crate ONLY when he absolutely has to go potty. I acheived this by abandoning the "ignore" method that worked for his older playmate, and approaching from a different angle with him. I grabbed my spray bottle that I use on the cats, and had that at the ready. I stood outside the room his crate was in, waiting for him to bark. He barked once, and I said "QUIET". He barked again, and I misted him once. He got the idea that very day. I've had to give him very few reminders over the course of the past few months. He is quiet as a whisper in his crate now. So I would recommend the spray bottle method as there are some dogs that don't mind barking for hours on end. However, I now am working on controlling barking while we are out on walks...he barks at anyone he deems suspicious, or any cardboard box that could be a threat. He does not bark and everyone or every box, etc, only certain ones. I have tried using a sideways jerk correction, but this does not work. Instead, I grab the leash close to his collar and I instantly have his attention-he looks straight at me, and I say "QUIET" and it's done, we can continue walking past whatever and we're fine.
As far as a training collar for him, you really shouldn't have to use a "training collar" on him. I would recommend a rolled leather collar ( as they prevent matting or breakage of the fur). And use positive reinforcement. If you catch him doing an unwanted behavior, use your "no" word. (I use a sharp EH-EH) and either spray, or shake a can of coins, etc. That's as negative as it should get. Wherever possible, keep things positive. ALWAYS reward behaviors that you want to see, and "mark" the behavior with a word and treat. I use rolled leather collars for mine and they work fine. This is what I would recommend. I'm not an expert, but these methods have worked well for me. I have established myself as the MOST VALUABLE thing to my dogs. I'm more valuable than the kids next door dropping pieces of pizza their eating on the porch, because they know that by coming to me, they will receive a high value reward. As I've said to other owners, make your grass greener, no matter where you are, you have to have more value than anything else. Good luck!
Nylon collars will often cause breakage and matting in the fur, so that's another no-no for shelties and other longhaired breeds. I just groomed my friend's Pomeranian and had to cut a good deal of mats from around his neck due to the nylon collar she uses on him causing thick uncomfortable mats.
Martingales are not generally used for training purposes. They were developed originally for dogs such as the greyhound, whose necks are bigger than their heads and can easily slip out of their collars. They have become popular for shelties because some shelites have a reputation for slipping their collars when they startle during a walk. They are designed to tighten only to the point of being snug around the neck. It should be impossible to "choke" with a martingale.
Chain slip collars (as I tried using once) can pinch the skin/fur-as I found out from my dog when I tried correcting him with it-it pinched his fur when I pulled the chain and he gave me a quick "yip", I could tell it pinched his skin/fur. However, they should never cause trachea damage if you are using them properly. The only time a choke chain would cause trachea damage is if you tie your dog out with it and is left to lunge at whatever, or if your dog gets a running start and is stopped abruptly by the chain.
When you say that your sheltie seemed "relieved" with the prong collar, you also state he wanted to be pet, and be given attention. I'm wondering if this reaction was because he was maybe a bit nervous with it on, feeling "teeth" around his neck.
I myself have 2 puppies. 30 weeks old , and 20 weeks. Both shelties. My 20 week old I brought home at 8 weeks. He has the most PIERCING bark I have ever heard. He barked and barked and barked in his crate. He could bark all day and night-he doesn't care. I think he enjoys hearing himself bark. Now, due to my training, he barks in his crate ONLY when he absolutely has to go potty. I acheived this by abandoning the "ignore" method that worked for his older playmate, and approaching from a different angle with him. I grabbed my spray bottle that I use on the cats, and had that at the ready. I stood outside the room his crate was in, waiting for him to bark. He barked once, and I said "QUIET". He barked again, and I misted him once. He got the idea that very day. I've had to give him very few reminders over the course of the past few months. He is quiet as a whisper in his crate now. So I would recommend the spray bottle method as there are some dogs that don't mind barking for hours on end. However, I now am working on controlling barking while we are out on walks...he barks at anyone he deems suspicious, or any cardboard box that could be a threat. He does not bark and everyone or every box, etc, only certain ones. I have tried using a sideways jerk correction, but this does not work. Instead, I grab the leash close to his collar and I instantly have his attention-he looks straight at me, and I say "QUIET" and it's done, we can continue walking past whatever and we're fine.
As far as a training collar for him, you really shouldn't have to use a "training collar" on him. I would recommend a rolled leather collar ( as they prevent matting or breakage of the fur). And use positive reinforcement. If you catch him doing an unwanted behavior, use your "no" word. (I use a sharp EH-EH) and either spray, or shake a can of coins, etc. That's as negative as it should get. Wherever possible, keep things positive. ALWAYS reward behaviors that you want to see, and "mark" the behavior with a word and treat. I use rolled leather collars for mine and they work fine. This is what I would recommend. I'm not an expert, but these methods have worked well for me. I have established myself as the MOST VALUABLE thing to my dogs. I'm more valuable than the kids next door dropping pieces of pizza their eating on the porch, because they know that by coming to me, they will receive a high value reward. As I've said to other owners, make your grass greener, no matter where you are, you have to have more value than anything else. Good luck!
I forgot to add that both dogs are raw fed and Tintin is slowly losing his fat roll through exercise and a good diet. Our current puppy class instructor says the gentle leader is the only collar acceptable but both puppies will be starting novice obedience through the local obedience club with a different instructor next weekend.
Please see this thread:
http://www.sheltieforums.com/showthread.php?t=11016
About how a lot of people here do NOT recommend the gentle leader as a default, especially for puppies.
OntarioSheltie
Forums Celebrity
I would definitely advise against using a prong collar on a sheltie, they are far too sensitive.
I disagree with the comments regarding the use of a gentle leader, I think there is nothing wrong with using a gentle leader on a puppy and know of several good, positive reinforcement trainers who believe in using them from puppy hood.
They believe it is better to start using it with a puppy, teach them how to walk correctly without pulling and what position the pup is supposed to be in at your side, then wean them off of the gentle leader. They believe the pup should wear the gentle leader for approx. the first year of its life before gradually weaning them off of it.
I personally would not use a flat collar or rolled leather collar on a sheltie, it is too easy for them to back out of them andescape from them. Martingale collars can be used for training and everyday leash walking.
I disagree with the comments regarding the use of a gentle leader, I think there is nothing wrong with using a gentle leader on a puppy and know of several good, positive reinforcement trainers who believe in using them from puppy hood.
They believe it is better to start using it with a puppy, teach them how to walk correctly without pulling and what position the pup is supposed to be in at your side, then wean them off of the gentle leader. They believe the pup should wear the gentle leader for approx. the first year of its life before gradually weaning them off of it.
I personally would not use a flat collar or rolled leather collar on a sheltie, it is too easy for them to back out of them andescape from them. Martingale collars can be used for training and everyday leash walking.
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I agree with the martingales as well...both my dogs can't back out of their rolled leather collars anymore as their heads are quite big now, just depends on the individual dog. I am still considering buying martingales once my dogs are adults though...buying a quality martingale for a puppy would be difficult unless it was an adjustable rolled leather one. I want martingales so that their collars can hang more loosely around their necks than their current collars.
OntarioSheltie
Forums Celebrity
Ginny was quite small and didn't fit a martingale right away, but I don't think it took very long for her to grow into it.
This web site makes very small martingales and you can get them with a snap. I have two of them and really like them. YOu can easily get one that will fit a puppy and they're very inexpensive, but well made. This company was great to deal with
http://www.furpetsonly.com/martingaledogcollarsmall.aspx
I forgot to add about the crating times. 18 hours for a 10 month old is way too long (unless the dog isn't housetrained). When my dogs were less than 16 weeks old, they spent a good deal of time in their crates. I actually had a "nap schedule" for them while I was not at work. Playtime only would last a half hour before they were back in their crates for another nap. Puppies need lots and lots of sleep-just like a newborn baby. This is when they grow. But for a 10 month old that is a lot of time to be in a crate. If you must crate the dog for most of the day, you must make sure it gets at least 1 hour to 2 hours of vigorous exercise daily...I'm not talking about your casual stroll. I mean running hard and really stretching those legs and using those muscles. The exercise that makes you say "He'll sleep good tonight". Is this dog housetrained? Or destructive when you are gone and left out?
From a dog trainer's point of view....
I've only ever allowed three of my students to put a prong collar on their dogs. In all cases, the dogs were significantly stronger than the handler. The prong collar is a tool - not a final solution. When I allow an owner to use a prong, they must attend a 1/2 hour private lesson (which I provide for free) on how to use it effectively, safely, and fairly. When the handlers/dogs are able to, we work towards a martingale, and then a buckle collar.
We do not allow choke chains in class for safety reasons - people like to yank them way too much.
We also do not allow gentle leaders - mainly because they don't make the dog think - it's just a quick fix. I have also seen dogs injured by owners who yanked their heads around.
The prong collar is dangerous in the wrong hands - I have had a few dogs come in with major aggression issues linked to the use of a prong collar.
Not all owners appreciate the reasoning - many owners want a quick solution, which the prong provides. Unfortunately, it's only appears to solve the problem - if you take the prong off, and your dog still pulls, you have taught the dog absolutely nothing.
Good luck with the new instructor - let us know how it goes!
I've only ever allowed three of my students to put a prong collar on their dogs. In all cases, the dogs were significantly stronger than the handler. The prong collar is a tool - not a final solution. When I allow an owner to use a prong, they must attend a 1/2 hour private lesson (which I provide for free) on how to use it effectively, safely, and fairly. When the handlers/dogs are able to, we work towards a martingale, and then a buckle collar.
We do not allow choke chains in class for safety reasons - people like to yank them way too much.
We also do not allow gentle leaders - mainly because they don't make the dog think - it's just a quick fix. I have also seen dogs injured by owners who yanked their heads around.
The prong collar is dangerous in the wrong hands - I have had a few dogs come in with major aggression issues linked to the use of a prong collar.
Not all owners appreciate the reasoning - many owners want a quick solution, which the prong provides. Unfortunately, it's only appears to solve the problem - if you take the prong off, and your dog still pulls, you have taught the dog absolutely nothing.
Good luck with the new instructor - let us know how it goes!