Training techniques: Caesar vs. the rest???

Thanks, I appreciate what you guys are saying. Here is what I think of Cesar: He truly disgusts me. He simply is not a good, up to date trainer.
I am just beating my head against the wall, and he is not worth my frustration.

To anybody delivering their dog to that man: Shame on you!
Here he is in his glory, if you would just analyze this with your own brain instead of his charm and misguided BS


[URL="http://youtu.be/Gq62POnD7sA"]http://youtu.be/Gq62POnD7sA[/URL]
 
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Toffee's Mom said:
Thanks, I appreciate what you guys are saying. Here is what I think of Cesar: He truly disgusts me. He simply is not a good, up to date trainer.
I am just beating my head against the wall, and he is not worth my frustration.

To anybody delivering their dog to that man: Shame on you!
Here he is in his glory, if you would just analyze this with your own brain instead of his charm and misguided BS


[URL="http://youtu.be/Gq62POnD7sA"]http://youtu.be/Gq62POnD7sA[/URL]
Click to expand...

point is missing that owners could care less about training the dog, they only want problem to be fixed, since they probably ARE the problem, it is impossible to fix.
I think such footage should not even be released for the fear that too many idiots are going to see it
 
Good thread Barb!:smile2: I'm going to reply in 2 parts ..

Part One - Personal viewpoint:

When I got Revel the only way I really knew to train was the method taught by those competing with Border Collies in top level obedience. Push the dog into the sit, use the lead a lot, hold the dog's mouth shut around the dumbell etc. Not cruel/dominance but accepted practice to achieve top results. Clicker training although around was only on the periphery. Results - Revel worked nicely when he had a mind to and achieved a fair few obedience results, however he was never a really keen worker. To an extent this is due to his temprament but I also think the training method didn't enthuse him. It was too late that I learned shelties aren't BCs and don't appreciate being 'programmed'. I introduced the clicker briefly and much later and as a result of using it for a few weeks - he won a very big and competitive obedience class and was as focussed as I've ever seen him....

Yogi only started 'formal' training earlier this year. He has always been a 'hands off' dog, I could never ever push him around. I have used the clicker for him and he is (apart from retrieve) competition standard after about 5 months of intermittant training. He is a more enthusiastic personality anyway but it works for him.

My pup Epic is ony just 15 weeks. He is much further advanced than ever Revel was at the same age and learned the basics of a sendaway in 2 five minute sessions, using the clicker.

You will assume from this I am a clicker/positive person but I will admit that I sometimes do revert to negative (shouting/lead jerks) correction. Don't know why because it most definitly doesn't work, but it's a 'lazy' resort and I'm not perfect yet! :lol: I have heard so many times the argument - "oh but the clicker doesn't work for some dogs/situations". Sorry but this cuts no ice with me. If the trainer is skilled and using the clicker (or any positive reinforcement correctly) it WILL work. The same can really not be said for corrective/coersive measures. That is why ex-prisoners continue to reoffend. Karen Prior's book "Don't Shoot the Dog" is not an easy read but it is completely fascinating and does make you think.
 
Part Two - The wider world

This is a really pertinent discussion as over here in the UK there has very recently been a tremendous public on different training methods, following the airing on prime time tv a clip of a young man using corrective measures to control resource (food) guarding in a JRT:

(It's worth reading some of the comments if you have time)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...cruelty-row-trainer-bullies-Jack-Russell.html

Following this, a huge outcry came from all aspects of the 'dog world' including ordinary owners, professional trainiers, rescue charities and the KC, all of whom unanimously agreed the methods being demonstrated were outdated, ineffective and inherently dangerous. Finally, and not without a battle, the feature was dropped:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...y-dog-trainer-Jordan-Shelley-faces-RSPCA.html

This young man held CM up to be his idol, however I must also point out that even Mr Milan's fans said the techniques showed little understanding of his methods.

Once the feature was dropped, there was never an apology issued, nor any information given on different methods for dealing with resource gaurding, so many viewers will regrettably be left believing that shoving your foot in the dog's face for 45 minutes will 'cure' it.:mad:



What this has shown is that the 'general public' really have no clue about what goes on in a dog's mind, or have any desire to figure out the cause of the problem. Unfortunatly it also seems to indicate that there are a lot of individuals with a bullying nature who think it is perfectly acceptable to punish an animal for exhibiting a natural behaviour. I now am only surprised that more people are not bitten by dogs. It seems that if a horse kicks then it is only being a horse, and if a cat scratches well, thats a cat. But should a dog not be a paragon of virtue far exceeding that displayed by the majority of humans, then it is dominant/agressive/nasty etc. People expect dogs to put up with excessivly high amounts of stress without reacting at all and if there is a reaction, it often results in the unfortunate animal being condemned to death....

On a happier and positive note to end, the 'trainer' at the centre of the furore has actually approached some training organisations for advice and wants the opputunity to learn how to train dogs correctly and effectively using positive methods.:smile2:
 
seashel said:
Part Two - The wider world

This is a really pertinent discussion as over here in the UK there has very recently been a tremendous public on different training methods, following the airing on prime time tv a clip of a young man using corrective measures to control resource (food) guarding in a JRT:

(It's worth reading some of the comments if you have time)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...cruelty-row-trainer-bullies-Jack-Russell.html

Following this, a huge outcry came from all aspects of the 'dog world' including ordinary owners, professional trainiers, rescue charities and the KC, all of whom unanimously agreed the methods being demonstrated were outdated, ineffective and inherently dangerous. Finally, and not without a battle, the feature was dropped:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...y-dog-trainer-Jordan-Shelley-faces-RSPCA.html

This young man held CM up to be his idol, however I must also point out that even Mr Milan's fans said the techniques showed little understanding of his methods.

Once the feature was dropped, there was never an apology issued, nor any information given on different methods for dealing with resource gaurding, so many viewers will regrettably be left believing that shoving your foot in the dog's face for 45 minutes will 'cure' it.:mad:



What this has shown is that the 'general public' really have no clue about what goes on in a dog's mind, or have any desire to figure out the cause of the problem. Unfortunatly it also seems to indicate that there are a lot of individuals with a bullying nature who think it is perfectly acceptable to punish an animal for exhibiting a natural behaviour. I now am only surprised that more people are not bitten by dogs. It seems that if a horse kicks then it is only being a horse, and if a cat scratches well, thats a cat. But should a dog not be a paragon of virtue far exceeding that displayed by the majority of humans, then it is dominant/agressive/nasty etc. People expect dogs to put up with excessivly high amounts of stress without reacting at all and if there is a reaction, it often results in the unfortunate animal being condemned to death....

On a happier and positive note to end, the 'trainer' at the centre of the furore has actually approached some training organisations for advice and wants the opputunity to learn how to train dogs correctly and effectively using positive methods.:smile2:
Click to expand...

Yeah, I won't expect US to stop CM shows because of cruelty to animals.
 
I just watched alot of youtube, CM videos. Some looked bad-maybe taken out of context. I just watched German Shepherd 1, and German Shepherd 2. They were excellent, no one would object to the methods used. I really like Ceasar, but a few of the youtube clips were questionable. I wonder if his show should never have been touted as a dog training show. Instead, it is more of a person who has dealt with severe problems in dogs successfully. I just don't know, all I know is that people who post these clips to youtube have their own biases.
 
KarenCurtis said:
I just watched alot of youtube, CM videos. Some looked bad-maybe taken out of context. I just watched German Shepherd 1, and German Shepherd 2. They were excellent, no one would object to the methods used. I really like Ceasar, but a few of the youtube clips were questionable. I wonder if his show should never have been touted as a dog training show. Instead, it is more of a person who has dealt with severe problems in dogs successfully. I just don't know, all I know is that people who post these clips to youtube have their own biases.
Click to expand...

This is HIS SHOW, Karen... there is NO bias there!? I saw the show and it was one of the ones that made me starting to say NO MORE allowing this guy to influence how I look at my dog... This is why I found it for all the Cesar followers... read the comments... these Cesarites don't want to hear it, because it makes you question his methods and the validity of it a lot (like I did...) Clues are right there in front of your eyes on his own show! I encourage everyone to mute him and just watch the show... JUST look at the the dog's body language and imagine giving him your dog to train.
 
Toffee's Mom said:
Thanks, I appreciate what you guys are saying. Here is what I think of Cesar: He truly disgusts me. He simply is not a good, up to date trainer.
I am just beating my head against the wall, and he is not worth my frustration.

To anybody delivering their dog to that man: Shame on you!
Here he is in his glory, if you would just analyze this with your own brain instead of his charm and misguided BS


[URL="http://youtu.be/Gq62POnD7sA"]http://youtu.be/Gq62POnD7sA[/URL]
Click to expand...

This is a great "test" case to evaluate methods.

We do not have the benefit of the entire video, so we do not know what pre-conditionining CM may have done before the walk. Maybe he did nothing? Or maybe he did some? We don't know.

So, given that the challenge of this aggressive dog, what could have been differently - either before the walk, to condition him or during the walk when he attacked?

p.s. Toffee's Mom - this is not directed specifically at you to answer, but I just find this to be a great test case of what do you do with "dogs out of control"! I appreciate you finding this link.
 
BarbV said:
This is a great "test" case to evaluate methods.

We do not have the benefit of the entire video, so we do not know what pre-conditionining CM may have done before the walk. Maybe he did nothing? Or maybe he did some? We don't know.

So, given that the challenge of this aggressive dog, what could have been differently - either before the walk, to condition him or during the walk when he attacked?

p.s. Toffee's Mom - this is not directed specifically at you to answer, but I just find this to be a great test case of what do you do with "dogs out of control"! I appreciate you finding this link.
Click to expand...

Does it matter what preceded it? he choked that dog.
Watch 'It's me or the dog' she deals with plenty 'red zone' cases, if you want another person's perspective of what IS possible and humane training, in my book it's never Cesar under ANY circumstances.
 
BarbV said:
This is a great "test" case to evaluate methods.

We do not have the benefit of the entire video, so we do not know what pre-conditionining CM may have done before the walk. Maybe he did nothing? Or maybe he did some? We don't know.

So, given that the challenge of this aggressive dog, what could have been differently - either before the walk, to condition him or during the walk when he attacked?

p.s. Toffee's Mom - this is not directed specifically at you to answer, but I just find this to be a great test case of what do you do with "dogs out of control"! I appreciate you finding this link.
Click to expand...

This is a great idea Barb. I can honestly say that I would not have a clue what to do if this was my dog so it will be interesting reading as others post their thoughts.
 
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