Update: Kai'a, seizures, test results and phenobarbital

Hi Jenny: I have a 4 year old sable boy who started having Grand Mal (GM) seizures at the age of 2-1/2 yrs. We started him on Potassium Bromide (Kbr) and when that didn't control things, we added Phenobarbital (PB). We went through a very rough period when he had cluster seizures and had to be hospitalized. Then the Neuro had me add Zonisimide and the combo of the three meds did the trick. Spencer went almost a year without any seizures. He had a brief GM in February and another one in March, but has been seizure-free since. (Fingers crossed.) His post-ictal behavior included pacing non-stop for over an hour, but I found when I applied Bach's Rescue Remedy to his gums during the seizure (his jaws did not snap so I could do this safely), the pacing was reduced to 15-20 minutes and sometimes there was no pacing at all.
It did take a bit of time for his body to get used to these meds, but you'd never know it now since he is a normal Sheltie who would play fetch all day if I'd throw the tennis ball for him, who runs and runs and runs in the backyard, who has no problem using our backyard agility equipment (jumping, etc.).
I guess what I am saying is that if your little Kai'a is diagnosed with ideopathic epilepsy, it may take a bit of time to get her on track depending on how the med or meds work for her. And using Spencer as an example, his life is that of a active, silly (at times) Sheltie.
I hope you are given a diagnosis soon because once you know for sure what is going on, life will become easier.
Ann who is a Moderator here on the Forum has a Sheltie named Pixie and she has had good luck using a natural type of treatment. I'm sure she'll come by soon to let you know about that.
 
Hi Jenny. I am so sorry to hear about Kai'a's issues. I don't know anything to help you with this, but we are thinking about you and praying for you.
 
If you don't have a copy of Lew Olson's book on nutrition (which you probably don't, it's only been out for a few weeks : ) order it. I believe there is a whole section on feeding seizure dogs, and what foods tend to trigger seizures. I don't have the book in front of me, I lent it to a friend.

A quick search of her yahoo!group has her explaining about how dogs on phenobarb tend to have higher incidences of pancreatitis, so to decrease the fat intake, and eliminating all starches, root vegetables and grains, including rice. It's something to research, because foods can cause all kinds of problems in dogs, or trigger certain things. Like some people can't have fake sugar because it triggers migraines (my grandmother).

Obviously, no more vaccines or pesticides for this girl. I would also test for the MDR-1 gene while you are at it. She could be getting into something that is causing the problem (like a neighbors ant pesticide).

When my moms dog was on phenobarb, they had trouble getting his blood un-fatty enough to spin down. He didn't start seizing until he was 8 years old though. We chose not to do all the advanced testing (MRI, CT, etc.) because the return on the cost was very little. If he had a tumor, odds were very good it was inoperable, and if there was trauma, there is nothing to be done. So what good does spending $800 on a CT scan do?
 
Sorry to hear Kia'a had another seizure.

I have had many patients on Phenobarbital and my brothers 2 Labs have been on it the majority of them do great on it.What the drug does is set the seizure threshold higher so that it is more difficult to produce a seizure.

The main thing people note is slight anxiety or lethargy when they first start it. That gets better with time as the body gets used to it. The body does become dependent on the medication so once you start don't stop suddenly. A missed dose or 2 could trigger a seizure. The levels need to be in a certain range to high can be toxic and too low does nothing to help the seizures. After about 3 weeks, a phenobarb level is done to make sure the medication is the right dose and then after 6 months thereafter. It takes 3weeks to reach a steady state. If you see heavy sedation,ataxia(trouble walking), drinking more, urinating more, eating more or any signs that concern you contact your vet as that could mean the dose is too high. The drug can cause increased liver enzymes with long time use although actual liver damage is rare. Those dogs with switch too KBR. It doesn't occur too often in my experience but another reason to monitor the chem values regular. I like to check them in 6 months and then yearly. Very rare and I've never seen it can be anemia and platelet problems. SO any pale gums or brusing should be report imediately to your vet.

That being said my brother Labs took phenobarbital . One lived to 16yrs(started phenobarb at 6 months) and showed no issues at all. He passed due to cancer. He current Lab is 10yrs has shown no issues either and has been on it since 1 yr.

One thought, check your yard or mushrooms, take note of the plants in the yard(some can cause seizures) does it look like any are being chewed on. MDR1 test is a good idea. Good luck with the neurologist.
 
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Jenny, I am so sorry to hear about what you and Kai are going through with the seizures. As Jan said, I also have an epi dog, but we were lucky enough that she never had Grand Mal seizures, only Petit Mal ones. She started very young, at 4 months, after being vaccinated by my then-vet while she was sick with coccidia. I knew, since her seizures were not that bad -- certainly not what you've experienced, that I did not want to put such a young puppy on Phenobarb which was the drug of choice at the time.

As the years passed and I explored all sorts of nutritional aids and triggers, her seizures continued, becoming more frequent. I found a pattern...Pixie would seize usually in hot weather, and after exercise. Like Kai, she would become stiff, turn her head to one side, and lose her balance. She would always come and stand by me and I could tell immediately after a bit what was coming. I would hold her until the tremors passed and, like Kai, she would be very droopy and lethargic for the day. Pixie's seizures generally lasted under 10 minutes though, so they were less draining than longer ones would be.

Luckily, when she was two years old, I found a vet who practices a combination of mainstream and holistic medicine. He is now vet to all my animals. He offered me a choice of trying bionutritional analysis before we went to chemicals. Blood tests were run, and Pixie was put on a combination of several holistic medications....a supplement, a relaxant, and brain/nerve formula, all natural compounds. I also consulted a canine nutritionist (and polled several others across the country) and found research has shown that seizure dogs do much better on a duck-based diet...something about the tryptophan in chicken/turkey blends.

Pixie eats Go Duck fomula now, and has eaten duck-based food for more than a year. I took her completely off chemical flea/tick repellants and use a natural one (Sergeants Natural Defense) and gradually, her seizures lessened to where now, she has not had one in more than a year. Still, I watch her closely in hot weather.

This is not to say that a natural regimen would work for Kai. My vet was clear at the beginning that although it might lessen her seizures, it was unlikely it would eliminate them. I think we were very lucky in that Pixie's seizures were not severe. I do believe those cases need and benefit from drugs like Phenobarbitol and the one that Jan's Spencer is on.

However, I do recommend that you switch her to a duck-based food, eliminate any chemical formulas for fleas and ticks, and restrict her to only required vaccinations once every three years, which is how my vet does them.

If you have more questions, please feel free to PM me. I'll give you any help I can. I wish the best for you, Steve and little Kai.
 
I should say that I don't recommend that every dog with seizures go on phenobarbital or even start medications. It is the ones with frequent seizures. Seizures can still occur while the dog is on phenobarbital. My brother's first Lab had his first seizure at about 5.5months. He had one a week later then 3 days later and then daily and he was started on meds then. He had about a dozen the next 15.5 yrs. My brother next Lab(unrelated BTW) had his first seizure at 1yr then 1 month later then close to monthly. My brother couldn't stand it so he decided to put him on meds. He has had 1 since. They are lucky as they live in an area with almost no fleas and little ticks so they have never use preventatives. I was really interested in Pixies meds as I had little experience with those treatments and the duck based diet.
 
Justicemom said:
I was really interested in Pixies meds as I had little experience with those treatments and the duck based diet.
Click to expand...

Pixie's meds come from Marty Goldstein's lab, Animal Nutrition Technologies in Westport, CT, which he founded 10 years ago. I've followed his work for years...he's a pioneer in the canine holistic field. My vet did their bionutritional blood tests on Pixie which were much more extensive than regular bloodwork before her meds were prescribed. We rerun the test each year to reassess.

The combination of the holistic meds with the diet and not using chemicals is really what made her turn the corner...and made me a believer. I sure hope a similar answer can be found for Kai.

The good news is that even if Kai has to go on Phenobarb that her chances are good, as Jan and Dr. Shelli said, for improvement. I've also heard that Shelties who manifest with seizures usually do so before age two, so Kai fits into that category.
 
It takes about 6 genes to be inherited from both parents to produce seizure as inherited disorder I believe. Question will remain what cause of it now- contact with environmental problems, vaccinations, tumor or idiopathic / no known cause/. As said above sometimes it is just too costly to run multiple tests to figure it out.
I also vote for looking into Bach remedies- lots of relaxation there and go holistic all the way, change nutrition and see what are possibly common triggers causing brain short circuiting and getting overexcited. this is one of those cases when you need to look into whole body/ lifestyle changes to see the difference.
 
Just wanted to again, thank everyone of their posts. I feel overwhelmed with information, but empowered as well. :) It's nice to be on the other side of feeling helpless.

Kia'a is home again, and we're are once again waiting for the results of the blood work done yesterday. To be honest, I think it will come back fine, just like the last 3 times ... it's time to move on to other options.

I decided to hold off on starting her on the Phenobarbital. I don't like the "let's try it to see if it helps" approach. Today we are going to start making some gradual changes; walking later at night (when it is much cooler than at 7:00 pm), playing fetch and tug in the house intead of out in the yard, changing her diet ... getting rid of rice and chicken. I am expecting a script to help once she starts having a seizure and I am going to try to wait it out until next week when we see the neurologist. I also made an appointment with the Eastern/Western vet that has come highly recommended by several people I know - looking into the dietary and holistic side of the coin, which is, if possible, the way I like to go before starting a ton of medications.

If the time comes, or it gets to bad, I will put her on the Phenobarbital (or whatever else is needed), but not before I see the neuro-clinic and try some lifestyle adaptations. I know see that there is no end to this road, but I do see a light and traveling down it has become a path instead of a dead end. I think Kai'a and I (and the rest of the family) are ready to do this and I am no longer paralyzed by fear ... which is a good thing for all of us.

Thanks for all your help, I know I will PM a lot of you for more specific questions, advice ... insights. I hope you all know just how wonderful you guys are; what a tremendous wall of support you give. I would not be where we are now had it not been for all of you. I am really proud to be a part (albeit small) of this amazing group. :smile2:

Wishing you and your families well -
 
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Back at you, Jenny....we're glad you're here too, and we are here to help you and Kai'a! Hang in there ~ you're on the right road and you will figure this out! :yes:
 
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